I'm definitely not surprised to see it doing better on a big-turbo car, but realistically-speaking the majority of FiST owners aren't going to end up BT. The optimal cooler for the OEM turbo is not going to be the optimal cooler for something larger. Right now, from the data that the community has shared, the J-Line is showing to be the best for the OEM application. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Post your datazap datalogs !!
- Thread starter Sourskittle
- Start date
I just want to share this with you guys and everyone else.
Both cars are upgraded turbos, Both cars run withen 1psi of boost, both cars have the same intake, both cars have intake air temps within in 4deg's, and the difference is our DHM intercooler vs Cobb FMIC.
Again like i have said i have data on top of data. I just dont have all the time in the world so i share what i can when i can.
Russ
Both cars are upgraded turbos, Both cars run withen 1psi of boost, both cars have the same intake, both cars have intake air temps within in 4deg's, and the difference is our DHM intercooler vs Cobb FMIC.
Again like i have said i have data on top of data. I just dont have all the time in the world so i share what i can when i can.
Russ
Also Intake, Charge, and Ambient shown for both?
thanks!
There used to be some logs for comparison in the FMIC thread that got deleted, outside of that I haven't paid attention because I already have a FMIC. Razor and I had compared the J-Line to the Cobb simply because very few people post logs, and the J-Line was clearly superior.
I guess [MENTION=648]iso100[/MENTION] could take one and post out here if he's so inclined, and then maybe another member on the OEM turbo/DHM FMIC could post one as well for comparison if they wanted.
I guess [MENTION=648]iso100[/MENTION] could take one and post out here if he's so inclined, and then maybe another member on the OEM turbo/DHM FMIC could post one as well for comparison if they wanted.
well this is the data zap thread!
http://datazap.me/u/drag4life723/cobb-vs-dhm-intercooler-big-turbo?log=0&data=5-6-12-15
ones that are marked Rod are the EFR and the other data is the GTX
Russ
http://datazap.me/u/drag4life723/cobb-vs-dhm-intercooler-big-turbo?log=0&data=5-6-12-15
ones that are marked Rod are the EFR and the other data is the GTX
Russ
Here is some stock turbo logs from a customer that just installed our DHM intercooler! I would love to see the J-line logs.
http://datazap.me/u/drag4life723/dhm-intercooler-stock-turbo-customer-1?log=0&data=4-7
http://datazap.me/u/drag4life723/dhm-intercooler-stock-turbo-customer-2?log=0&data=4-7
Russ
http://datazap.me/u/drag4life723/dhm-intercooler-stock-turbo-customer-1?log=0&data=4-7
http://datazap.me/u/drag4life723/dhm-intercooler-stock-turbo-customer-2?log=0&data=4-7
Russ
Here is a log I ran a while ago which looks at charges temps before, during, and at end of 4th gear pull...
http://www.datazap.me/u/boostbumps/01112015-e2091-t8-4th-0?log=0&data=4-5-6-7&zoom=14-114
WOT from 2100~6100rpm with stock turbo / Cobb IC / TBE
Boost peak ~23.5 psi (2900rpm) tapers to ~15psi (6100rpm)
Max change or increase in charge temps seen at end of WOT run was 7.3 degrees (72.9F to 80.2F)
For most folks that are going to be keeping their stock turbo's and not tracking their FiSTs but still interested in some spirited romps thrown into the mix then Cobb's IC is more than adequate...
Now for those with intentions of upgrading to much larger turbo and tracking their FiST then a larger more efficient FMIC might be a good investment...
[HR][/HR]
Also it should be referenced and noted that the stock (OEM) IC over similar runs saw increases in charge temps of ~25F which where ~3x times greater that of the Cobb FMIC over similar runs...
http://www.datazap.me/u/boostbumps/01112015-e2091-t8-4th-0?log=0&data=4-5-6-7&zoom=14-114
WOT from 2100~6100rpm with stock turbo / Cobb IC / TBE
Boost peak ~23.5 psi (2900rpm) tapers to ~15psi (6100rpm)
Max change or increase in charge temps seen at end of WOT run was 7.3 degrees (72.9F to 80.2F)
For most folks that are going to be keeping their stock turbo's and not tracking their FiSTs but still interested in some spirited romps thrown into the mix then Cobb's IC is more than adequate...
Now for those with intentions of upgrading to much larger turbo and tracking their FiST then a larger more efficient FMIC might be a good investment...
[HR][/HR]
Also it should be referenced and noted that the stock (OEM) IC over similar runs saw increases in charge temps of ~25F which where ~3x times greater that of the Cobb FMIC over similar runs...
Also here is a log from a bone stock car (our shop car)
Tune on e30 HIGH boost and DHM intercooler (only a 4-5deg rise in temp)
http://www.datazap.me/u/drag4life723/high-boost-dhm-intercooler?log=0&data=2-3-5-6
also note that the front grill has not been shaved out to use the top portion of the intercooler
Russ
Tune on e30 HIGH boost and DHM intercooler (only a 4-5deg rise in temp)
http://www.datazap.me/u/drag4life723/high-boost-dhm-intercooler?log=0&data=2-3-5-6
also note that the front grill has not been shaved out to use the top portion of the intercooler
Russ
Just trying to look from another perspective..I agree your very track focused and we're all grateful for that! 
I live in an extremely hot climate btw and still very pleased with my Cobb IC...
Most of my logs look at charge temp changes...And as you can see even in your plots ambient and intake temps remain relatively constant during most WOT runs and its the absolute change or increase in charge temps over the run which are really the primary focus here....
Generally speaking I never see my intake temps any greater than 6.5 degrees over ambient...
That said I'm currently working on logs that will show all three (ambient , intake, charge) since I'm still not done evaluation my new intake and primarily focus on air temps and flows....i'll definetly post those when completed....
I live in an extremely hot climate btw and still very pleased with my Cobb IC...
Most of my logs look at charge temp changes...And as you can see even in your plots ambient and intake temps remain relatively constant during most WOT runs and its the absolute change or increase in charge temps over the run which are really the primary focus here....
Generally speaking I never see my intake temps any greater than 6.5 degrees over ambient...
That said I'm currently working on logs that will show all three (ambient , intake, charge) since I'm still not done evaluation my new intake and primarily focus on air temps and flows....i'll definetly post those when completed....
Just trying to look from another perspective..I agree your very track focused and we're all grateful for that!
Most of my logs look at charge temp changes...And as you can see even in your plots ambient and intake temps remain relatively constant during most WOT runs and its the absolute change or increase in charge temps over the run which are really the primary focus here....
Generally speaking I never see my intake temps any greater than 6.5 degrees over ambient...
Most of my logs look at charge temp changes...And as you can see even in your plots ambient and intake temps remain relatively constant during most WOT runs and its the absolute change or increase in charge temps over the run which are really the primary focus here....
Generally speaking I never see my intake temps any greater than 6.5 degrees over ambient...
These are several reason why no matter what you do with your car a good intercooler is important. I assure you that the DHM intercooler will out preform all these factors compared to the rest.
Do you need to spend 850$ on this kit. NO most dont they will get what they pay for and be reasonably happy. I am not saying every one needs our kit but i will defend its performance over the rest! Data does not lie. Numbers dont lie and Math does not lie!
Russ
I don't think anyone is really giving a reason to need for you to defend your setup, and many of us have the tendency to push-aside info coming directly from the manufacturer/distributor and look to third-party data for information anyways.
Before you go full cp-e on me and act like I'm calling you a scammer-it's not that at all. Manufacturers have a vested interest in providing data that 'proves' their product is the best, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's up to customers to effectively evaluate a products' worth through their own legitimate comparisons. That will only come with the removal of bias and through comparing/contrasting third-party data.
Case-in-point: I bought the Cobb FMIC because I wanted a complete bolt-on solution and value the work Cobb puts into their products and service. Is it the best at shedding temps? At the time of purchase I didn't know but can now definitely say no. Does that mean it's a bad product? Not at all. It worked perfectly for my needs then and now, and only in the future will I know if I want/need something better.
Nobody is trying to disqualify the DHM FMIC, people are only searching for more data/information. Realistically speaking, it's something AP3 users should have been actively doing a year ago.
Before you go full cp-e on me and act like I'm calling you a scammer-it's not that at all. Manufacturers have a vested interest in providing data that 'proves' their product is the best, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's up to customers to effectively evaluate a products' worth through their own legitimate comparisons. That will only come with the removal of bias and through comparing/contrasting third-party data.
Case-in-point: I bought the Cobb FMIC because I wanted a complete bolt-on solution and value the work Cobb puts into their products and service. Is it the best at shedding temps? At the time of purchase I didn't know but can now definitely say no. Does that mean it's a bad product? Not at all. It worked perfectly for my needs then and now, and only in the future will I know if I want/need something better.
Nobody is trying to disqualify the DHM FMIC, people are only searching for more data/information. Realistically speaking, it's something AP3 users should have been actively doing a year ago.
I agree, Cobb is the best other alternative because they actually engineer what they sell, which is seldom the case in the "performance" parts world. (note, best in terms of good function and much lower weight than the J-Line)
I have used their products for years as well and always totally happy with them.
I had the J'Line but needed to shave some weight to get my car back in balance, to light in the rear when bombing the brakes at 130MPH on track and going to be faster very soon! I bought the Cobb when I was out of town then I was offered the opportunity to order the first DHM and jumped on it, save even more weight, better airflow and even bigger IC.
For a highly modded and higher HP car driven lap after lap all out a BIG IC is a must have item unless one is OK with running a hot lap or two then couple of cool down laps. Track time is very expensive so maximizing the reason for being there is worth the trouble and cost to have the best cooling possible.
---------------------------
I have lots of logs with the J-Line, Cyborg, 3" DP and exhaust and the best real CAI there is I will send some but have to dig through to find the best ones.
Soon I will have logs with the DHM EFR and IC you can use as well.
It is very very rare to get the real truth in this industry, again, we are damn lucky to have DHM build such great products, great prices and stand behind it with real data
Rick
I have used their products for years as well and always totally happy with them.
I had the J'Line but needed to shave some weight to get my car back in balance, to light in the rear when bombing the brakes at 130MPH on track and going to be faster very soon! I bought the Cobb when I was out of town then I was offered the opportunity to order the first DHM and jumped on it, save even more weight, better airflow and even bigger IC.
For a highly modded and higher HP car driven lap after lap all out a BIG IC is a must have item unless one is OK with running a hot lap or two then couple of cool down laps. Track time is very expensive so maximizing the reason for being there is worth the trouble and cost to have the best cooling possible.
---------------------------
I have lots of logs with the J-Line, Cyborg, 3" DP and exhaust and the best real CAI there is I will send some but have to dig through to find the best ones.
Soon I will have logs with the DHM EFR and IC you can use as well.
It is very very rare to get the real truth in this industry, again, we are damn lucky to have DHM build such great products, great prices and stand behind it with real data
Rick
I agree, Cobb is the best other alternative because they actually engineer what they sell, which is seldom the case in the "performance" parts world.
I have used their products for years as well and always totally happy with them.
I had the J'Line but needed to shave some weight to get my car back in balance, to light in the rear when bombing the brakes at 130MPH on track and going to be faster very soon! I bought the Cobb when I was out of town then I was offered the opportunity to order the first DHM and jumped on it, save even more weight, better airflow and even bigger IC.
For a highly modded and higher HP car driven lap after lap all out a BIG IC is a must have item unless one is OK with running a hot lap or two then couple of cool down laps. Track time is very expensive so maximizing the reason for being there is worth the trouble and cost to have the best cooling possible.
---------------------------
I have lots of logs with the J-Line, Cyborg, 3" DP and exhaust and the best real CAI there is I will send some but have to dig through to find the best ones.
Soon I will have logs with the DHM EFR and IC you can use as well.
It is very very rare to get the real truth in this industry, again, we are damn lucky to have DHM build such great products, great prices and stand behind it with real data
Rick
I have used their products for years as well and always totally happy with them.
I had the J'Line but needed to shave some weight to get my car back in balance, to light in the rear when bombing the brakes at 130MPH on track and going to be faster very soon! I bought the Cobb when I was out of town then I was offered the opportunity to order the first DHM and jumped on it, save even more weight, better airflow and even bigger IC.
For a highly modded and higher HP car driven lap after lap all out a BIG IC is a must have item unless one is OK with running a hot lap or two then couple of cool down laps. Track time is very expensive so maximizing the reason for being there is worth the trouble and cost to have the best cooling possible.
---------------------------
I have lots of logs with the J-Line, Cyborg, 3" DP and exhaust and the best real CAI there is I will send some but have to dig through to find the best ones.
Soon I will have logs with the DHM EFR and IC you can use as well.
It is very very rare to get the real truth in this industry, again, we are damn lucky to have DHM build such great products, great prices and stand behind it with real data
Rick
The FiST is notably tail-light under braking, and this can be much more easily remedied with suspension selection than FMIC selection.
Again, this is nothing negative against the DHM unit-it just hasn't proven itself yet. Much like those that thought they were buying the best when the Cobb FMIC came out, only to later find out that the less-expensive J-Line was beating it in terms of heat-exchange. The J-Line has proven to be very very good at what it does for what it costs, both in daily-driving and on the track, in a vehicle with an awesome tune producing significant power. Maybe the DHM will as well, but it's a newly released product that just doesn't have a ton of third-party testing done with it yet.
There are lots of questions that are only beginning to be asked because the product didn't exist before. Let the questions be asked and the data arrive and if it's the best it will be easily shown and noticed.
I agree, the testing is important, third party, done right, is best, it will prove the results expected I am sure but there might be certain issues for specific uses that come to light.
All my performance posts are geared towards maximizing the results on a road race track while still maintaining street civility so not always applicable to other uses of the car, i.e. drag racing where more forward weight helps rather than hurts.
Since I cannot see your posts(DYN), I just read it in the PM notification email, I edited the above as by best alternative I meant in terms of cooling/weight as the Cobb is far lighter than the J-Line for those wanting to control weight issues.
We have not seen testing on a road race track where the Cobb has more direct airflow surface showing than the J-Line which is likely to help equalize the cooling effect of them, could even favor the Cobb.
We certainly can work with handling issues with suspension but location of the weight is a highly important aspect of setting up any car used all out on a road race track. Two cars setup identically and tuned to the max the car with more centered weight balance will be faster and usually safer at the limits, but I would always want a bit of front bias. Having built 510's, Miatas, Subarus, Scion, Toyota, Vettes, FWD, RWD, AWD and studied about everything ever published on handling, race car suspension design, etc...it is always best to have the best balanced weight, lowest roll center, center of gravity, etc, then work from there.
Designing out a problem then tuning to maximize the chassis will yield the best results over tuning around an issue.
I have found with the J-Line in the front of my car and a pretty stripped rear I had to keep the tank at least 3/4 full to settle the rear end down when on the brakes at speed. Just dropping down to 3/8 tank or so made a big difference, we are talking about a few gallons of gas so my goal was to reduce the front, especially in front of the axle, weight around 20lbs and spend the money to do it. The Cobb would of helped over the J-Line by quite a bit but the DHM helps a great deal more than the Cobb so it is a bargain for me to run it, besides the added cooling.
Since my EFR turbo setup will add some weight back, not as bad as out on the nose of the car, I still might spend the money to save a few more lbs with a CF painted hood.
-----------
My goals for this car are not the same as many. I want it fast, safe, reliable and easy to drive on the street, which the car totally stock is great at. I just want to take it to a higher level and still be comfortable as a grocery getter, audio demo vehicle....and spank a lot of unsuspecting "fast" cars on the track
I am glad to have the parts available and becoming more available and when I can help them be so, for myself and others with similar or goals that fit some of these parts and somebody far more professional now doing the job Russ is doing
All my performance posts are geared towards maximizing the results on a road race track while still maintaining street civility so not always applicable to other uses of the car, i.e. drag racing where more forward weight helps rather than hurts.
Since I cannot see your posts(DYN), I just read it in the PM notification email, I edited the above as by best alternative I meant in terms of cooling/weight as the Cobb is far lighter than the J-Line for those wanting to control weight issues.
We have not seen testing on a road race track where the Cobb has more direct airflow surface showing than the J-Line which is likely to help equalize the cooling effect of them, could even favor the Cobb.
We certainly can work with handling issues with suspension but location of the weight is a highly important aspect of setting up any car used all out on a road race track. Two cars setup identically and tuned to the max the car with more centered weight balance will be faster and usually safer at the limits, but I would always want a bit of front bias. Having built 510's, Miatas, Subarus, Scion, Toyota, Vettes, FWD, RWD, AWD and studied about everything ever published on handling, race car suspension design, etc...it is always best to have the best balanced weight, lowest roll center, center of gravity, etc, then work from there.
Designing out a problem then tuning to maximize the chassis will yield the best results over tuning around an issue.
I have found with the J-Line in the front of my car and a pretty stripped rear I had to keep the tank at least 3/4 full to settle the rear end down when on the brakes at speed. Just dropping down to 3/8 tank or so made a big difference, we are talking about a few gallons of gas so my goal was to reduce the front, especially in front of the axle, weight around 20lbs and spend the money to do it. The Cobb would of helped over the J-Line by quite a bit but the DHM helps a great deal more than the Cobb so it is a bargain for me to run it, besides the added cooling.
Since my EFR turbo setup will add some weight back, not as bad as out on the nose of the car, I still might spend the money to save a few more lbs with a CF painted hood.
-----------
My goals for this car are not the same as many. I want it fast, safe, reliable and easy to drive on the street, which the car totally stock is great at. I just want to take it to a higher level and still be comfortable as a grocery getter, audio demo vehicle....and spank a lot of unsuspecting "fast" cars on the track
I am glad to have the parts available and becoming more available and when I can help them be so, for myself and others with similar or goals that fit some of these parts and somebody far more professional now doing the job Russ is doing
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