Speaker upgrade info needed!

[antarctica24]

I stand by everything I said.........and thanks but I don't need advice on electronics, I retired from teaching it for 35 years, I hold an Extra class FCC license. I also made a good living writing 26 training courses for customers like the U.S. Navy, Lockheed and AT&T on electronics. I have had a 5 page article published in QST on designing a switchable bandwidth speaker system. I built my first speaker system in 1965......we used a slide rule back then for the T/S parameters. I have designed tube type audio amps and custom speaker systems for customers for many years. Been in audio too long listen to some of your sales rhetoric with out a chuckle. Like many you are so wrapped up in digital corrections and fixes to make a car interior sound "good". Learn something about how audio actually works, not how to use digital toys to create a certain sound in a space that colors the sound like crazy. Nothing changes the fact that humans do not hear the same nor like the same "sound" as others.

You use the word "tune" lots, what are you "tuning for", the sound you like or a response curve? Why would you do this for a source like radio, mp3 and CD. As to tuning a car that is a joke other than competition. In real life the tuning in a car is only valid in one configuration. Open a window or Moon roof, put the back seats down, removing the rear shelf or adding one or more passengers, carrying stuff in the car all drastically change the acoustics and so called "tune". Garbage in garbage out.

Just because you feel one way and I another does not matter, what matters is the obvious. People prioritise things differently and some have zero desire to do anything but make some changes in the audio that they can afford and like. Take some time and look up response curves for 6 1/2 " speakers currently available to fit our cars, start with the stock one, then take an average response curve and prove how much negative difference it would cause in the car, I bet you can't your back your statements. The stock sony speakers are trash, you know that. I am sure some junk speaker can make the stock system sound worse if you buy the $19.99 800 Watt speakers. But if you spend $100 a pair for quality speakers you will improve the honky mids. You can't deny the audio chart. Almost all the custom amps I have made have tone and contour filters per the customer's requirements.

I put the info out there for people to see there are alternatives to spending thousands.

Good chance I sold my first speaker system before you knew what a speaker was. As to vinyl that is what is in my listening room, linear tracking turntable, 18 Watt per channel class AB2 with US made tubes and iron running a modified Altec Lansing speaker system. You are telling people they are wasting money unless they do it your way, that is wrong! Many people will be in love with a bazooka in the back. Or just plain want loud over quality. This debate has not changed since the 1960's when you had the East Coast and West Coast sound speaker battles and endless debates on the same old which one sounded better and to who. The technology before reaching the speaker has changed much in 100 years, other than acoustic suspension almost nothing has changed in the drivers or acoustics.

Wow, another real audiophile. Who would of thought. I can argue on age, I was born in 68, so I am certain you sold your first speakers before I was born, and I would not ever expect you to change your opinion. There is a lot of people trying to put sound in their car and they just don't get it. And if you like the open road with loud music, more power to you. I do want to comment on something you said though. The 6.5" in any make or model is the absolute worst speaker you could use for midrange. EVER. I don't care who you are, no offense. The 6.5" in any make or model is way too slow to be an accurate midrange driver. The best is the 4 in a 4 way, or a 5.25 in a 3 way. The images become blurred and are not focused. I know because there is nothing wrong with my hearing.

I am surprised that you asked about what I was tuning for? Back in your day, they didn't make any of these cool electronics. I have seen a record player for the car though. I started recording my own stuff on 8 Track. You were probably using reel to reel. I am tuning to match the acoustics of the car to the speakers. It could just be that you have never experienced anything that well done with electronics, so you snub your nose at it and I am ok with that. I too have an extensive album collection, but as I cant put that in the car, I have use what's available and just because technology has made advances in the reproduction of audio for the car, doesn't make it bad.

I not telling anyone to do anything. I am stating a fact. While you have taught audio for over 20 years. Teaching and practical application is not the same thing. I have judged over 1200 vehicles running what I would call high end car audio systems. I mean you no disrespect, but I can sit here and with a straight face, listen to your vehicle and tell you if it is right or not. And I can tell you based on what I know about the electronics industry today, not 40 years ago, I can tell you that you can just replace the speakers in your car and it will sound louder and if that is what you like, I am happy for you, BUT I can also say that if you just replace the speakers in your car, that it will not sound as good as it could.

Having sold, judged, installed not taught audio, again practical application, most people don't have the first clue. They buy some head phones, and an hook them up to their phone and play their mp3's and think its the best thing ever. Or, they run some MP3 through this FORD S&&& system, and replace their factory speakers and add a sub, and think they have moved to another planet. The reality is, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the best it could be, if the factory system is a 1, replacing the factory speakers gives you a 2 out of 10 of what it could be. How could I be so arrogant to say that? Easy, its a fact. Sony tuned this car based on the location of the speakers. Where you as the teacher should know that speaker placement is everything in a system, home, theater, arena, car, doesn't matter. Placement comes first. The better the placement the less fooling around with the system you have to do. Ford gave the car to the audio guys last. That means the speaker locations were an afterthought. How do I know that? Easy, where is the tweeter installed? As close as it could be to the driver and passenger in the door, not even forward in the door. Why is that? Because it would have cost a lot more money to move the tweeter to the dash, and then there would have been no way to move the mid, because then it would have had to been in the kick panel. The tweeter and woofer have to be no less, than 7" from each other when measuring the distance from the tweeter to your head, and the then the woofer from your head. So now, without any time alignment (WHICH I AM AGAINST), Sony uses time alignment to correct for poor location, screwing with the phasing of the drivers. Then they EQ the piss out of the system so that it gives a somewhat balanced sound. All of that tuning that Sony did, doesn't go away when you replace the factory speakers. Now, the replaced speakers which perform differently than the stock ones, are not setup to work with the tune in the car. For all the teaching you did, I am not sure what part of this you are not getting. Get out your slide rule, and take your measurements. This is basic Acoustical physics 101. Yes, by just replacing the speakers you get sound. Yes, just by replacing the factory speakers you get louder sound. Is it the best you could get, NO. If you retune the system using your new speakers will it sound more accurate, YES.

To be honest, unless your using a Concentric Speaker not coaxial, where the tweeter is ahead of the voice Coil, but the tweeter is mounted in the voice coil of the driver, then you have to use tuning in the car, to correct for the acoustics in the car. Even with the concentric driver, for those that don't know what that is( it is a time correct speaker). That means the highs and mids are more in alignment with time because the tweeter is sitting behind the woofer. Higher frequencies travel faster than lower frequencies. This is why systems like the Wilson Audio Sophia's and Watt Puppies, have their tweeters on an angle behind the plane of the woofer. If the highs and mids reach you at the same time, the system becomes transparent, and the speakers disappear, leaving only the image of the musicians, and instruments. I have witnessed this first hand, and it is extremely impressive. It is near impossible to achieve in the car, although I heard it almost once in all of the cars I have judged.

Let's not fight. I get that your are old school and that's cool. But try to understand technology has changed and changed for the better, there is nothing wrong with using technology to achieve better sound. And until the others have heard what it can be, I have to continue sharing what I can so that they can experience incredible sound reproduction as well as much as it can be. Not just getting by.

 

[jmrtsus]

Wow, another real audiophile. Who would of thought. I can argue on age, I was born in 68, so I am certain you sold your first speakers before I was born, and I would not ever expect you to change your opinion. There is a lot of people trying to put sound in their car and they just don't get it. And if you like the open road with loud music, more power to you. I do want to comment on something you said though. The 6.5" in any make or model is the absolute worst speaker you could use for midrange. EVER. I don't care who you are, no offense. The 6.5" in any make or model is way too slow to be an accurate midrange driver. The best is the 4 in a 4 way, or a 5.25 in a 3 way. The images become blurred and are not focused. I know because there is nothing wrong with my hearing.

I am surprised that you asked about what I was tuning for? Back in your day, they didn't make any of these cool electronics. I have seen a record player for the car though. I started recording my own stuff on 8 Track. You were probably using reel to reel. I am tuning to match the acoustics of the car to the speakers. It could just be that you have never experienced anything that well done with electronics, so you snub your nose at it and I am ok with that. I too have an extensive album collection, but as I cant put that in the car, I have use what's available and just because technology has made advances in the reproduction of audio for the car, doesn't make it bad.

I not telling anyone to do anything. I am stating a fact. While you have taught audio for over 20 years. Teaching and practical application is not the same thing. I have judged over 1200 vehicles running what I would call high end car audio systems. I mean you no disrespect, but I can sit here and with a straight face, listen to your vehicle and tell you if it is right or not. And I can tell you based on what I know about the electronics industry today, not 40 years ago, I can tell you that you can just replace the speakers in your car and it will sound louder and if that is what you like, I am happy for you, BUT I can also say that if you just replace the speakers in your car, that it will not sound as good as it could.

Having sold, judged, installed not taught audio, again practical application, most people don't have the first clue. They buy some head phones, and an hook them up to their phone and play their mp3's and think its the best thing ever. Or, they run some MP3 through this FORD S&&& system, and replace their factory speakers and add a sub, and think they have moved to another planet. The reality is, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the best it could be, if the factory system is a 1, replacing the factory speakers gives you a 2 out of 10 of what it could be. How could I be so arrogant to say that? Easy, its a fact. Sony tuned this car based on the location of the speakers. Where you as the teacher should know that speaker placement is everything in a system, home, theater, arena, car, doesn't matter. Placement comes first. The better the placement the less fooling around with the system you have to do. Ford gave the car to the audio guys last. That means the speaker locations were an afterthought. How do I know that? Easy, where is the tweeter installed? As close as it could be to the driver and passenger in the door, not even forward in the door. Why is that? Because it would have cost a lot more money to move the tweeter to the dash, and then there would have been no way to move the mid, because then it would have had to been in the kick panel. The tweeter and woofer have to be no less, than 7" from each other when measuring the distance from the tweeter to your head, and the then the woofer from your head. So now, without any time alignment (WHICH I AM AGAINST), Sony uses time alignment to correct for poor location, screwing with the phasing of the drivers. Then they EQ the piss out of the system so that it gives a somewhat balanced sound. All of that tuning that Sony did, doesn't go away when you replace the factory speakers. Now, the replaced speakers which perform differently than the stock ones, are not setup to work with the tune in the car. For all the teaching you did, I am not sure what part of this you are not getting. Get out your slide rule, and take your measurements. This is basic Acoustical physics 101. Yes, by just replacing the speakers you get sound. Yes, just by replacing the factory speakers you get louder sound. Is it the best you could get, NO. If you retune the system using your new speakers will it sound more accurate, YES.

To be honest, unless your using a Concentric Speaker not coaxial, where the tweeter is ahead of the voice Coil, but the tweeter is mounted in the voice coil of the driver, then you have to use tuning in the car, to correct for the acoustics in the car. Even with the concentric driver, for those that don't know what that is( it is a time correct speaker). That means the highs and mids are more in alignment with time because the tweeter is sitting behind the woofer. Higher frequencies travel faster than lower frequencies. This is why systems like the Wilson Audio Sophia's and Watt Puppies, have their tweeters on an angle behind the plane of the woofer. If the highs and mids reach you at the same time, the system becomes transparent, and the speakers disappear, leaving only the image of the musicians, and instruments. I have witnessed this first hand, and it is extremely impressive. It is near impossible to achieve in the car, although I heard it almost once in all of the cars I have judged.

Let's not fight. I get that your are old school and that's cool. But try to understand technology has changed and changed for the better, there is nothing wrong with using technology to achieve better sound. And until the others have heard what it can be, I have to continue sharing what I can so that they can experience incredible sound reproduction as well as much as it can be. Not just getting by.

You are still trying to sell......not to me. As to "old school" I have had enough of your condescending tone that somehow your digital toys are something new to me. So get this straight, I built my first computer before you could even buy a kit. For 6 years I trained every new technician in 9 states for AT&T including Digital Electronics and the writing the maintenance course on the buildings full of Digital switches they maintain. Look it up to get a scale of the systems. I was fortunate enough to progress from vacuum tubes to DSP in the electronics field and taught it to hundreds. I used DSP in my Ham radios years before it was affordable enough for cheap digital audio. So again please do not lecture me on electronics, you have no clue as to my background. As to you apparent lack of knowledge of past electronics do some research on things like spectrum analyzers, time domain reflectometers, filters and equalizers. They were in use long before even I was born. They were just a lot bigger and more expensive than their digital counterparts today. What did you miss in my challenge to prove just how the average 6 1/2 in speakers differs......If you can't tell us how much they would differ then all your theoretical sound advice about them sounding worse goes out the window.

I hope you don't see this as a fight, you have one opinion and I have another. I have never debated if you spend enough money you can make a dump truck into a concert hall if that is your goal. You still miss the point, you just cannot understand that there are people out there that do not care about what can be done with THOUSANDS of dollars because audio is not that important to them as it is to you. They just want to know what can be done to improve the sound to THEM for what THEIR budget allows. And to continually try to tell people that your audio competition experience somehow makes you an electronics or audio guru is fine if you enjoy it. However, simple numbers prove that people buy third party replacement/upgrade speakers in the hundreds of millions of pairs and the great majority of them are happy with their purchase. All your techie talk will not get them to spend a ton of money on sound deadening, quieter tires, and thousands in equipment. What would you think the ratio of happy customers with replacement speakers in comparison the the number that spend thousands on new equipment? 10,000 to 1? At least I would think. And they are all listening to worse sounding audio now according to you. Really? When a member asks what they can do within a budget why don't you tell them about a good low cost sub if all they want is more bass? As to our door speakers if you know of no replacement speakers to suggest then then back away as I am sure their are members that have changed their speakers, are happy with them and will respond. But to imply they are stupid or have not been somehow "taught" to know what sounds good to them or that millions of people are wrong about liking their replacement speakers is not helpful for what they want. I am sure there are many people on the forum that welcome your knowledge and want to achieve the epitome of Fiesta audio but again I believe the majority would rather make performance improvements not audio improvements in our ST's. The great majority just want simple honest answers that they can afford to correct what they perceive as deficiencies. If it makes them happy why would you want to try to convince them they are wrong? It can be done and is done thousands of times a day contrary to your opinions. (As to me throwing obscene money at attempts to mimic my home listening room with my car that was so 80"s.......over it.)

 

[antarctica24]

Jmrtsus

I was asked to post a series of upgrades for this car, I did so

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/9039-Stage-1-2-3-4-5-audio-upgrade-suggestions, Read what the title says "suggestions"

I cant offer something that I dont believe. That is called lying. When someone ask for an opinion, they are asking me based on my experience limited or not, what do I think. I am not going to push daisy's at someone, just to make them feel better about how they spend their money. I have been at this for 20 years. I know what does and does not sound good. Why would I when asked, say, "What kind of sound are you looking for?" When the person says back, I want more bass, I tell them to add a subwoofer. I have sold many subwoofer installs on that question. I have had people ask about replacing the speakers because they think the factory system is junk. You can do that. The best option is to get the JL Audio Fix 82, and take the factory curve back to flat, then add an amp and speakers. You don't have to re-tune the system. You can play it flat, just like audio retailers do in their sound rooms. I have sold thousands of systems like that. If you want to keep the factory system the same but want it a little louder, just buy an amp and rewire your speakers. There is nothing wrong with that if all you want is a louder system, which is the better option over replacing the factory speakers. None of this changes anything I have said. All of these modifications listed right here are possible for very minimal amount. You can do most of them for under $500.00. You can replace the amp and rewire it for under $500.00. You can replace all your speakers using great brands like Pioneer, Alpine, Hertz, JL Audio, Kicker, Rockford, Kenwood. My best friend has a 2015 Fiesta ST. He didnt want to spend a lot of money. He got at my recommendation, a set of kicker components for the front, Alpine PDX V9 amp with an LC2I and we built him a box. I helped him with his amp adjustments on the phone as I am in Washington and he is in North Carolina. I REALLY MISS NORTH CAROLINA. He wanted the Focal components and I talked him into the cheaper Kicker speakers. You can buy the Kicker 40CSS654's on ebay for 89.95 with free shipping, You can but the Kicker Coaxial for the rear for 40CS674 49.95 with free shipping. My math says that comes to 139.90. You can buy a Kenwood KSC-SW11 powered subwoofer for 162.30 with free shipping and tie into the rear speakers for it to get its signal. So now the total comes to $302.20. Under $500.00, you do the labor yourself and your well under $500.00. You can find all kinds of combinations on ebay from respectable sellers for this kind of money.

Now with all of that said. It doesn't change the fact that doing that kind of install "Does not sound as good as it could". I have never told anyone anywhere to do what I am doing. I have only said that if you want it to be "Right" according to not my standards but the entire industry today, and the way audio electronics work today, you have to re-tune the system to match what you have installed. All I have said is if you don't re-tune the system, it will not sound as good as it could. And to make it sound as good as it could will cost you more than $500.00. I am not selling anything to anyone. And anyone who decides that they want to go the route of retuning their system, I will do it for free. I will help anyone anywhere pick out parts for their audio system for free. I will help them find the best parts for the best price for free. If they live near me, I will help them install the stuff for free. I dont have a shop anymore. I sold it. You are right about one thing, I have sold a lot more systems for under $1000.00 than those over $10K. However, I have sold over 300 systems over $10K. For those asking why would anyone do that in a car? When you make more money you play in a different crowd. Some do it for show for their friends, some seek perfection. Some want systems that match what they have spent in the house. Some are just dumb. But for a few select people, we do it because IN MY OPINION (lets be clear here as not to upset you), we do it because we believe the car is the best environment for reproducing audio when done correctly. Anyone with a large enough checkbook, can go buy a set of Krell integrated amps, or McIntosh Tube amps, a set of Wilson Audio Grand Slams and be well over $150,000. I have sold and installed home theater systems well over $200K. When you have a bottomless checkbook, people want that theater experience in their home, so you give them what they ask for. Not one time, have a had a customer come back on a expensive car or home theater install and say, man you were full of S^^^ and wasted all of my money. As a matter of fact, what generally happened was they brought their friends over, or let their friends here their car, and then the friends wanted it in theirs.

Its like taking someone at a show, that has a system setup in the car that focuses on bass reproduction. Lots and lots of bass. I could get into the science of why some humans like the all high all bass system, but most people would not understand, but lets just say, that I have been at many shows, and guys and girls will come up and say whats all the hype about, what makes your vehicle and the others in this lane so much better. I give them the keys and say, bring whatever music you want to listen to, they go get a CD, and they are in the car for about a hour. Get out and say, How can I make my car sound like that? It happens every time someone listens to my vehicle or any other vehicle that has been setup correctly as a show. Everytime. There is some disappointment when you talk about how much it cost, but not everyone can play in the same sandbox. It is just the nature of society. However, 99% of everything I have talked about on this forum regarding car audio is possible without spending an stupid amount of money. Oh wait, I have already suggested that in many many post. Let's take the system above, I did for my friend. I think he spent a little more on the speakers, but my total was $302.20 I think the pioneer speakers sound better, but who am I to judge. People hear the word Pioneer and think cheap, and they would really wrong. The TS line is some really nice stuff, and i actually would put them over the Focal stuff. but I digress. So, we have our $302.20 system, that has replaced all the speakers, and added a sub. Now we have to tune the system, that means we need to do some level settings, crossover settings, and eq settings in that order. So we need to buy an AMP, and a processor that has the ability to set crossover points, levels, an has an eq we can adjust. My first choice would be to use a 4 channel amp, to bi-amp the front speakers. This means for those who dont know, give each channel up front its own power. That means each tweeter and each woofer gets its own power, we power the rear off the deck at full range, and the sub is getting its power from the built in amp in the sub. I have recommended the Precision Power 88R which can be had on ebay all day for around $240.00. You can get a Alpine PDX-F4 for around $299.00 or you can go for a different model for less with less power. But if we are going to retune and keep the factory system, we have to set it back to flat. The best way to do this is the JL Audio Fix 82 for $249.00 So lets review our total of all the equipment, $302.20 for the speakers and sub, $299 for the amp, 249.00 for the processor, and 249.00 for the JL audio piece. That brings our total to $1099.20 all with free shipping, all you have to do is install everything and I am happy to help anyone get it tuned for free. If you do this, your system will sound better than it would if you just replaced only the speakers, or added an amp, or just added a sub. This is not thousands of dollars. It is $1100.00 and that price varies based on the equipment you purchase. It is cheaper than replacing the turbo, and if you spend $150 and get your car retuned, instead of replacing the turbo, you would have a really fun ride. Oh wait that was too funny, I wonder why you cant just buy a turbo and put it on the car and not have to retune the car? hmmm. I guess Ill leave it at that for those who are curious to think about.

 

[antarctica24]

Jmrtsus,

One more thing. I am an extremist in every since of the word. When I go all in, I dont do anything piece meal. When those who replace their speakers say, it is the best they have ever heard, they are probably right. Based on their own personal experience, but when they start telling others that is all they have to do to get the best sound, that is misleading based on my experience. If all you know, is what it feels like to ride a 3 speed bicycle and you buy a bike with 21 gears. You would say it is better than what you had, and you would say it is the fastest you have gone. But if you didnt know me, and I came up to you and said, I have a bike that will go 100 mph. You would say right? I dont believe you. So I show up with a Honda CBR600 and I take you down the street. Still a Bike. Still 2 wheels and has less gears. But is much faster. Yes it cost more. But that doesnt change the fact that it is faster.

Replacing the speakers is not the best you can do, It may be all you want to do, or maybe all you want to spend, but it doesnt mean that you can do somethings to make it sound better than just replacing the speakers. I ride my bike about 100 miles a week the one with two pedals.

 

[jmrtsus]

Jmrtsus,

One more thing. I am an extremist in every since of the word. When I go all in, I dont do anything piece meal. When those who replace their speakers say, it is the best they have ever heard, they are probably right. Based on their own personal experience, but when they start telling others that is all they have to do to get the best sound, that is misleading based on my experience. If all you know, is what it feels like to ride a 3 speed bicycle and you buy a bike with 21 gears. You would say it is better than what you had, and you would say it is the fastest you have gone. But if you didnt know me, and I came up to you and said, I have a bike that will go 100 mph. You would say right? I dont believe you. So I show up with a Honda CBR600 and I take you down the street. Still a Bike. Still 2 wheels and has less gears. But is much faster. Yes it cost more. But that doesnt change the fact that it is faster.

Replacing the speakers is not the best you can do, It may be all you want to do, or maybe all you want to spend, but it doesnt mean that you can do somethings to make it sound better than just replacing the speakers. I ride my bike about 100 miles a week the one with two pedals.

I rest my case....still selling to an audience that is not buying. Numbers don't lie....read them and weep.

 

[antarctica24]

I'm good with that.

Some old dogs are not capable learning new tricks.

Happy Easter

 

[Intuit]

I like the hardware mentions in this thread. That gives us a good place to start.

Have you guys tried playing with the fader a bit? I have mine sounding pretty damn good just by fading more to rear. The fronts are so overpowering when balanced equally. I've had a couple passengers ask me if I had a bass tube.

It is reportedly easy to blow/damage a speaker by under-powering it. Trying to drive a speaker louder, that is at the same time farther away can be less efficient; and one may be more inclined to push the speaker at damaging levels. Power could be shared between all channels meaning that, peaking out the rear channels could starve the front?

So I've left the leveler alone and instead used/set the radio's DSP Sound Focusing option to "Driver" focus.

My prior Alpine system had allowed for per-channel adjustments to the delays between each speaker and this had far, far, far more impact on efficiency than one could've imagined. For example, I was far more inclined to hear the subwoofer than feel it. Backgroudn detail that would ordinarily be nearly lost in a noisy vehicle environment would pop meaning, lower volume levels.

Personally want no part of swapping out the factory radio as it just looks tacky. (unlike with older vehicles) But I'll definitely research the signal processor options that were posted here. All I really want is an "efficient" setup that can emphasize the really-low frequencies without vibrating everything death on the higher lows.

 

[Jims_ST]

Gents, I for one can appreciate the valuable points of view and information provided by both antarctica24 and jmrtsus. I feel that you, antarctica have been kind enough to provide us with some valuable insight and a means of achieving a much higher standard of audio quality than is the norm - something 'special' - which is as the Fiesta ST among other ordinary cars - it is a special vehicle. There will be those that will not have the desire for better audio or a smaller budget and will be more than content with the sound upgrade a simple upgraded speaker setup would provide, and jmrtsus thank you, for you have provided a balanced view on what it takes to achieve a simple upgrade to the audio in the fiesta that I dare say most would be content enough with. I think of it as going for a Stage 1 210hp vs Stage 3 400hp if we were comparing to performance numbers

 

[Jims_ST]

I also note that I worked for a number of years, at a car audio installation place in my younger days and I was surprised at how good some systems sounded just with a simple upgrade of replacing the stock speakers with something good like Pioneer. Definitely not just louder, but fuller mids/bass and definitely nicer sound

 

[Dave88LX]

I don't know who won, but, this was an interesting read.