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The Fiesta is Gone!

jmrtsus

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#41
One and a half seconds for a downshift? I mean I’m not the best gear rower in the world but that would absolutely kill the driving experience for me. Kind of a shame, honestly, it wouldn’t be terribly difficult to get the ECU and TCU to get a rev matched downshift, especially with all the wiggle room that torque converter gives you in matching engine and wheel speeds. Then again I suppose that’s Ford for you, another example of a less than fully thought out automatic transmission.


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First thing is it is not a Ford transmission it is a Ford/GM transmission and an overall excellent piece. Considering the power it has to handle, 10 speeds and a reasonable price point It is fine. Like our FiST the car and the GT auto can be tuned for better performance, I see no reason for it for our use. The car is faster than the "classic" muscle cars of my teen years and I was lucky enough to have brothers and relatives with hot cars I got to drive. I did not say it took 1.5 seconds to shift but that you need to be ahead of the car. At 60 Mph you travel 88 feet per second. So if it takes 1/2 a second to shift you need to shift 44 feet ahead of where you want your downshift to happen. You must process the small delay to anticipate the actual hitting the paddles not that the shift took that long. As your speed drops you cover less ground. So hitting the curve entry point in the right gear to accelerate through the curve and out is something that will take lots of practice to optimize performance, The two times I drove it very hard for a total of about one hour I still did not feel comfortable with the shifts. I just prefer a manual 6 speed. With the ten speeds you also have more gears to go through. Leaving the paddles out of the picture is probably faster as it skips gears going down. I have never been on a road that required downshifts to keep brakes cool. Even with the manual I seldom hit all the gears, going down for a 2nd gear curve I will go 6-4-2. Saves the clutch and brakes are cheap. Would be different on a track. I haven't driven the car in four months but I would say the delay in the sport mode is like 1/2 second for the actual shift. If you go down 6 gears the delays add up to 3 seconds. In the auto mode it will skip shift going down. Two things.....if I drove it more often I'm sure I could adapt to it better and my wife ate the FiST up not using paddles in the twisties. Both cars are great fun to drive, but both totally different other than a blue oval. It is her DD and due to knee surgery the first auto she has had in like 25 years. I just look at it like this, if I can drive it free I'll give up the manual and save $40K.
 


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#42
You will miss the Fiesta. Yeah, the mustang is faster, in a straight line. What the Mustang isn't is nimble like the Fiesta and it's not close to the fuel squeezer the Fiesta is.

I also have to ask if you have nearly 500 hp on tap with massive torque spread why is a freaking 10 speed transmission needed. It is something I really dislike about cars today, things that should target simplicity and durability have become complex Squared because people think more gears just have to be better. Think about it, used to be a 5 speed was plenty good enough and the only real benefit to a 10 speed is that you get to pay megabucks to have your transmission replaced with a new one because the service techs today are not qualified to repair a tranny, they are only qualified to swap it out. I can remember helping my dad with a Saginaw 4 speed back when I was only 12 years old and it was actually pretty simple to fix.

BTW, did time driving a semi for my dad while home from college for the summer and with those trucks 10 speeds did make sense. Because the Cummins 350H pulled best between 1800 and 2100 rpm, so when there was a load of 40,000 lbs behind you 10 speeds allowed you do get up to speed and carry more speed on the hills. However when running back to base empty we didn't bother with split shifting because an empty trailer was easy to get moving.
 


Last edited:

DoomsdayMelody

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#43
First thing is it is not a Ford transmission it is a Ford/GM transmission and an overall excellent piece. Considering the power it has to handle, 10 speeds and a reasonable price point It is fine. Like our FiST the car and the GT auto can be tuned for better performance, I see no reason for it for our use. The car is faster than the "classic" muscle cars of my teen years and I was lucky enough to have brothers and relatives with hot cars I got to drive. I did not say it took 1.5 seconds to shift but that you need to be ahead of the car. At 60 Mph you travel 88 feet per second. So if it takes 1/2 a second to shift you need to shift 44 feet ahead of where you want your downshift to happen. You must process the small delay to anticipate the actual hitting the paddles not that the shift took that long. As your speed drops you cover less ground. So hitting the curve entry point in the right gear to accelerate through the curve and out is something that will take lots of practice to optimize performance, The two times I drove it very hard for a total of about one hour I still did not feel comfortable with the shifts. I just prefer a manual 6 speed. With the ten speeds you also have more gears to go through. Leaving the paddles out of the picture is probably faster as it skips gears going down. I have never been on a road that required downshifts to keep brakes cool. Even with the manual I seldom hit all the gears, going down for a 2nd gear curve I will go 6-4-2. Saves the clutch and brakes are cheap. Would be different on a track. I haven't driven the car in four months but I would say the delay in the sport mode is like 1/2 second for the actual shift. If you go down 6 gears the delays add up to 3 seconds. In the auto mode it will skip shift going down. Two things.....if I drove it more often I'm sure I could adapt to it better and my wife ate the FiST up not using paddles in the twisties. Both cars are great fun to drive, but both totally different other than a blue oval. It is her DD and due to knee surgery the first auto she has had in like 25 years. I just look at it like this, if I can drive it free I'll give up the manual and save $40K.
Half a second for the TCM to command a downshift is still absurd. I press the button, I expect a result. I’m not saying the mustang is a bad car, I understand that it is a full order of magnitude more capable than the FiST, what I am saying is that Ford has a tendency to not fully think some aspects of any given car out and more often than not that is almost always transmission behavior. The fact that a tune fixes it is a testament to the fact that ford didn’t fully think about how to program the automatic transmission in their performance car. It’s not like the transmission can’t perform, it’s the fact that from the factory Ford didn’t want to spend the time figuring out how to make it seamless. That’d bother me for 40 grand, even if I can get an aftermarket flash to fix it. It just begs what else Ford didn’t think through on the car. Maybe thats why I prefer 3 pedals, less for the manufacturer to divide their attention on if they don’t have to pay someone to develop an algorithm to tell the trans when to shift.


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jmrtsus

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#44
You will miss the Fiesta. Yeah, the mustang is faster, in a straight line. What the Mustang isn't is nimble like the Fiesta and it's not close to the fuel squeezer the Fiesta is.
I have not got rid of my FiST, it is my DD and the GT is my wife's DD. Had she not bought the GT I would have gotten one and sold my FiST. Now I don't need to. She loves my FiST and I love her GT. So we are both happy! BTW the GT is also quicker in the curves, pulls higher G-force. More tire and IRS. We both love the FiST more on roads like the Tail of the Dragon as is is easier to drive hard. The g-forces in corners with the g-force of the acceleration coming out plus the hard braking due to much higher speeds is tiring in the GT. The FiST is more relaxed and more fun to us. On the fuel deal my MP-215 FiST gets me up to 37 mpg with non-ethanol 93 hwy. Best guess in Sport mode is about 25-26 mpg hwy @ 75 mph for the GT based on a 1/2 tank of easy driving and crap gas. Car has never been out of Sport mode since new. I bet taking it easy in the economy mode she may see 29-30 mpg with 93 non-ethanol. Hell its not the gas with a coyote, it's the oil! 10 qt. oil change is $50 for just the oil! Our favorite shop charges $22 and we supply the oil and filter. So $80 dollar oil changes every 3.5 K miles. Love our cars!
 


jmrtsus

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#45
Half a second for the TCM to command a downshift is still absurd. I press the button, I expect a result. I’m not saying the mustang is a bad car, I understand that it is a full order of magnitude more capable than the FiST, what I am saying is that Ford has a tendency to not fully think some aspects of any given car out and more often than not that is almost always transmission behavior. The fact that a tune fixes it is a testament to the fact that ford didn’t fully think about how to program the automatic transmission in their performance car. It’s not like the transmission can’t perform, it’s the fact that from the factory Ford didn’t want to spend the time figuring out how to make it seamless. That’d bother me for 40 grand, even if I can get an aftermarket flash to fix it. It just begs what else Ford didn’t think through on the car. Maybe thats why I prefer 3 pedals, less for the manufacturer to divide their attention on if they don’t have to pay someone to develop an algorithm to tell the trans when to shift.


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Unless you have a dual clutch auto you will not get a much faster shift without very hard shifts. Nothing to figure out except there is not a market for any other automatic in a GT or Camaro. Price a proper DCT transmission and you will see the 10 speed is a good compromise in price/performance/reliability. Even the Shelby's don't have a DCT. The 10 speed transmission can be tuned to shift quicker but the cost will be $$, harsh shifts, loss of warranty and reliability, not what I would call a "fix". I don't consider it "broken" as it does exactly what it was designed to do. If the auto in the GT is a problem then buy a manual like I would. It will of course be slower but more fun to drive. Or add the supercharger for over 700 HP and only $10K and it will outrun any modded tranny GT and still have a warranty. The Mustang is the best selling sports car in the world largely because it is affordable performance like the FiST. The 10 speed offers the required performance and does it within the budgeted costs. Cost is the main reason Ford and GM worked together to develop the 10 speed. The stock base GT Auto will do 0-60 in under 4 seconds and the quarter in under 12 seconds with only a tire pressure change on the A/S tires. That is about as fast as I need! Video's on youtube of the runs on a 2019.
 


DoomsdayMelody

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#46
Unless you have a dual clutch auto you will not get a much faster shift without very hard shifts. Nothing to figure out except there is not a market for any other automatic in a GT or Camaro. Price a proper DCT transmission and you will see the 10 speed is a good compromise in price/performance/reliability. Even the Shelby's don't have a DCT. The 10 speed transmission can be tuned to shift quicker but the cost will be $$, harsh shifts, loss of warranty and reliability, not what I would call a "fix". I don't consider it "broken" as it does exactly what it was designed to do. If the auto in the GT is a problem then buy a manual like I would. It will of course be slower but more fun to drive. Or add the supercharger for over 700 HP and only $10K and it will outrun any modded tranny GT and still have a warranty. The Mustang is the best selling sports car in the world largely because it is affordable performance like the FiST. The 10 speed offers the required performance and does it within the budgeted costs. Cost is the main reason Ford and GM worked together to develop the 10 speed. The stock base GT Auto will do 0-60 in under 4 seconds and the quarter in under 12 seconds with only a tire pressure change on the A/S tires. That is about as fast as I need! Video's on youtube of the runs on a 2019.
I’m not sure about that, Mazda has a well calibrated torque converter auto that not only rev matches down shifts but also performs them reasonably quick, to the point where there is no noticeable lag when you press the paddles. Now, Mazda’s torque converter also has a clutch on it, so it’s possible the additional hardware helps responsiveness while driving aggressively (although nothing in Mazda’s lineup is anywhere near as fast) but saying that there’s no way to get better performance out of a regular old slushbox without spending money or losing smoothness just isn’t true.

Haven’t driven anything with the Ford/GM 10 speed, but I have driven plenty of Ford’s various 6 speed autos and even their new 8 speed and they all display similar characteristics to what was described with the 10 speed behavior. Why Mazda is able to get better behavior out of a slushbox is beyond me, but as it stands they’re the only manufacturer that could get me to willingly choose a non 3 pedal trans.

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Ford ST

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#47
The ZF 8 speed automatic transmission is better.



"CEO of Aston Martin, who claims ZF’s 8HP is lighter, cheaper, and quicker than a dual-clutch transmission. “Ten years ago, [the dual-clutch] still looked like the transmission of the future. Now it is starting to look like the transmission of the past,” he tells us. But the DCT finds refuge in supercars. The added length of a torque converter can be prohibitive in a mid-engine architecture, and precise launch-control programs provide an advantage in acceleration. And engineers maintain that a good dual-clutch ’box does shift quicker. “For our kind of product, it’s about a really fast shift, which the pre-engagement element of a dual-clutch gearbox helps us with. We think that’s still got a decent speed advantage,” says Marcus Waite, chief engineer of the McLaren Senna.

But for just about every other vehicle, though, it's hard to argue that anything can do the job better than the ZF eight-speed."




https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23367341/automatic-transmission-best-zf-eight-speed/

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wetwea33

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#48
You will miss the Fiesta. Yeah, the mustang is faster, in a straight line. What the Mustang isn't is nimble like the Fiesta and it's not close to the fuel squeezer the Fiesta is.

I also have to ask if you have nearly 500 hp on tap with massive torque spread why is a freaking 10 speed transmission needed. It is something I really dislike about cars today, things that should target simplicity and durability have become complex Squared because people think more gears just have to be better. Think about it, used to be a 5 speed was plenty good enough and the only real benefit to a 10 speed is that you get to pay megabucks to have your transmission replaced with a new one because the service techs today are not qualified to repair a tranny, they are only qualified to swap it out. I can remember helping my dad with a Saginaw 4 speed back when I was only 12 years old and it was actually pretty simple to fix.

BTW, did time driving a semi for my dad while home from college for the summer and with those trucks 10 speeds did make sense. Because the Cummins 350H pulled best between 1800 and 2100 rpm, so when there was a load of 40,000 lbs behind you 10 speeds allowed you do get up to speed and carry more speed on the hills. However when running back to base empty we didn't bother with split shifting because an empty trailer was easy to get moving.
You clearly have never driven an s550. The ten speed is literally for fuel efficiency. It's a 6 speed with 4 overdrive gears. Tuned it's pretty great and even in stock form it's plenty fast but is not super responsive to the paddles. Stock form an s550 would rip a fiesta in any type of driving, and with a proper coilovers setup they are monsters. Yeah it won't feel like it's 2700 pounds but the price for performance is amazing.

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wetwea33

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#49
I’m not sure about that, Mazda has a well calibrated torque converter auto that not only rev matches down shifts but also performs them reasonably quick, to the point where there is no noticeable lag when you press the paddles. Now, Mazda’s torque converter also has a clutch on it, so it’s possible the additional hardware helps responsiveness while driving aggressively (although nothing in Mazda’s lineup is anywhere near as fast) but saying that there’s no way to get better performance out of a regular old slushbox without spending money or losing smoothness just isn’t true.

Haven’t driven anything with the Ford/GM 10 speed, but I have driven plenty of Ford’s various 6 speed autos and even their new 8 speed and they all display similar characteristics to what was described with the 10 speed behavior. Why Mazda is able to get better behavior out of a slushbox is beyond me, but as it stands they’re the only manufacturer that could get me to willingly choose a non 3 pedal trans.

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The 10 speed is miles better then anything prior to it and miles better then anything mazda has to offer. They can also hold a shit ton of power...

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DoomsdayMelody

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#50
The 10 speed is miles better then anything prior to it and miles better then anything mazda has to offer. They can also hold a shit ton of power...

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Although I’ll withhold final judgment until I can drive a non-truck vehicle with a 10 speed, so far I can definitively say that Mazda’s 10 year old gearbox design is better than any of Ford’s automatic transmissions that I have driven based on driving characteristics alone. Based on the behaviors that I am reading about, it doesn’t seem like the 10 speed will change that opinion. I don’t see what power has anything to do with anything in the discussion, trans behavior is more important on anything you’d consider an enthusiast vehicle and it seems like Ford didn’t do a good job of programming an otherwise very capable transmission, which is kind of a typical corporate Ford decision. Saying that it’s a better gearbox than anything Ford has ever produced is a low bar. Ford is somewhat infamous for poor automatic transmissions. For the last 30 years they have had at least one car in production that has had reliability concerns surrounding its automatic gearbox. So I’d hope that their 10 speed isn’t the one to continue that trend. The fact is that even you have said that it’s an aftermarket tune away from being great, and I ask why ford just didn’t spend a bit more on the team that wrote the program that determined shift logic?


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wetwea33

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#52
The Mustang is up on jackstands and the Whipple plus TSS oil pump, timing chain, gears begins in the A.M!


View attachment 31871
Gonna be an awesome daily. I really miss having a v8 and pd blower. Especially when paired with some drag radials for the streets it was alot of fun.

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slopoke

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I got hung up on a few items, like the bolt that secured the guard on the HPFP to the head snapped it's mount bolt. Thank goodness the bolt goes fwd to aft through the head and threads into the back of the guard. I had to cut the bolt and drill the broken section of bolt out. I've stopped working on it at the point of just pulling the harmonic balancer. I'll resume in the morning. Hopefully, I'll have the oil pump gears, oil pan reinstalled, timing chains reinstalled and harmonic balancer reinstalled tomorrow. If not, no big, I don't have to go back to work until July the 10th.



104783998_259609862035002_576927372637331806_n.jpg
 


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slopoke

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More progress. The harmonic balancer was a pain. Time for a break, I'm cooking ribs toninite and I've gotta get the grill going and run some errands.





105392056_1283018965362421_7150601831443652420_n.jpg
 


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slopoke

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25 or so leisurely man hours (solo) I've completed the oil pump gears and cam chain sprocket installation. The supercharger is in, but the kit was missing two pulleys. Whipple has great customer service, they shipped the pulleys out today and I'll get them tomorrow. All that's left is mounting the two pulleys, installing the belt's and installing the LTR (low temp radiator), adding 10 quarts of oil, oil filter and a double check of the installation. There is light at the end of the tunnel!!




 


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#56
Congrats the 10r80 s550 cars are amazing and respond to mods very well. If you buy anything else for it in the future check with Terry at beefcakeracing.com. He is a personal friend sells items at great prices and matching customer service. You will love the Whipple, who's tune will you be running? Lund, Palm Beach are two great options.
 


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slopoke

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Congrats the 10r80 s550 cars are amazing and respond to mods very well. If you buy anything else for it in the future check with Terry at beefcakeracing.com. He is a personal friend sells items at great prices and matching customer service. You will love the Whipple, who's tune will you be running? Lund, Palm Beach are two great options.

As a matter of fact, I got the majority of parts for my Mustang from Terry. I'm going to run the canned tune. I'm not looking at winning any horsepower contests. I had to resort to doing dyno pulls to datalog for my Fiesta, since I had to use 4th gear so the tires wouldn't spin. Third gear, the tires started to spin up top. With the Mustang, there is no way, that I want to do pulls on the street. Also, since I've sunk 15K into this car in aftermarket parts, I don't really want to spend another grand for a tuning tool, tune and dyno pulls.
 


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