Unlocking the RS' Full Potential!

[Chrisklol]

Stormcrow did this same thing in the other livernois thread as well. Apparently he is pretty salty towards them and it shows.

 

[Joker328]

Considering it has the Ecoboost Mustang engine, it probably didn't take a lot to tweak it specifically to the RS.

Yes, I suspect there aren't many major mysteries in this engine or the Ecoboost platform at this point, though I wouldn't rule it out. However, I think the real risk with tuning for the RS is the trick AWD transmission. We know those clutch packs can put out a lot of heat and driving more torque through them is only going to make that more of an issue. If I were in the enviable position of being able to afford an RS, I think I'd wait a while before tuning.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

What it means is you're not privy to their proprietary intellectual property, and your not-so-subtle implication of incompetence is hardly a way to get a full-disclosure answer.

Consider that a Cobb et al "custom tune" takes at most a couple hours. They do a couple baseline pulls, look at the datalogs, adjust some load, torque, and boost settings, do test pulls, make more adjustments, confirm gains, and wrap it up. Your comment about "properly understand" implies there's something witchcrafty going on that's beyond their wisdom, which is obviously false if you had any real tuning experience on the Ford EcoBoost platforms. Add in their already extensive experience with the Mustang EB and dialing in an FoRS tune on stock hardware is more an exercise in verifying prior wisdom than breaking any new ground.

Man, you really dislike Livernois and their methods, huh? lol

I do appreciate someone challenging them because I enjoy getting more insight into how Livernois works from their perspective.

It is far more that we will not continually argue. We are not going to engage in constant battling. We understand that we are not for everyone, but for the clients that wish to have access to the best performance solutions we are here!

Nice job, thanks for sharing! It looks like the RS changes versus the Mustang EB net about 10 more HP and LbFt after your tune. Admittedly that's less than I expected given Ford's claim about a bigger turbo and the Cosworth head. Perhaps the turbo and head flow only slightly more?

Thanks! As time goes on the tuning will continually be revised (and undoubtedly make more power), especially as Ford issues more and more base cal updates. Look at it this way, we have been tuning the SHO/MKS since 2009. We still have new revisions fairly frequently. About every 9 months or so there is an update for a platform that has basically remained the exact same since its inception.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Getting the twisties of the M1 Concourse in Focus!

 

[stormcrow]

What it means is you're not privy to their proprietary intellectual property, and your not-so-subtle implication of incompetence is hardly a way to get a full-disclosure answer.

Consider that a Cobb et al "custom tune" takes at most a couple hours. They do a couple baseline pulls, look at the datalogs, adjust some load, torque, and boost settings, do test pulls, make more adjustments, confirm gains, and wrap it up. Your comment about "properly understand" implies there's something witchcrafty going on that's beyond their wisdom, which is obviously false if you had any real tuning experience on the Ford EcoBoost platforms. Add in their already extensive experience with the Mustang EB and dialing in an FoRS tune on stock hardware is more an exercise in verifying prior wisdom than breaking any new ground.

I never wrote "properly understand". I stated I didn't understand their response. Which, if you reread what they wrote, was actually a non-response and simply more misdirection. Pointed questions replied to with "hey! look over here!" instead of direct responses.

As to what you state about Cobb, et al, custom tunes, if that's what you're getting from your tuner, then you've been screwed. There is categorically a LOT more that goes into a tune than a few dyno pulls and a few hours. And to correlate a Mustang tune with an AWD Focus RS tune is plain silly. Just as I stated above, there is a lot more R&D that has to go into developing a tune for an AWD car given the amount of complexity in the TCM. The ECU and TCM work in tandem and simply changing the ECU boost, fuel, timing, torque will cause issues with the way the TCM responds. Ask any R35 GT-R calibrator about all of the lessons that were learned when jumping from tuning a twin-turbo VQ35DE to tuning the VR38 all because of the introduction of AWD.

 

[stormcrow]

Man, you really dislike Livernois and their methods, huh? lol

I do appreciate someone challenging them because I enjoy getting more insight into how Livernois works from their perspective.

I dislike the dishonesty and snake-oil they peddle. They simply refuse to answer direct questions with direct, logical, and technical responses.

Stormcrow did this same thing in the other livernois thread as well. Apparently he is pretty salty towards them and it shows.

Not at all salty. I'm just wanting to see some transparency from this company. Yet, they continue to hide behind misdirection and their fan-boys.

It is far more that we will not continually argue. We are not going to engage in constant battling. We understand that we are not for everyone, but for the clients that wish to have access to the best performance solutions we are here!

It's not battling. It's Q&A. Instead of ignoring, hiding, and/or replying with nonsense, how about directly answering the questions posed? Are ANY of my questions non-technical in nature? No. So why do you continue to ignore them all while replying to those who come to your defense or give you kudos? Do you not want people to have faith in your product? Or is their blind faith derived from the postings of fan-boys enough to satiate you? As a "top tuner" offering "the best performance solutions", one would think that you'd be open and HAPPY to discuss the technical aspects of your tune and how you achieved it. One would expect you would tout all of the R&D put into it.

 

[Chrisklol]

What do you really want from them? I didn't see you bashing the people who released tunes for this car days ago! Well before livernois. Go troll elsewhere bro.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

We feel that we have adequately defended our position several times with you. Going back and forth with someone that does not have the car that we are talking about, any mods on their current vehicle and merely wants to battle is not a positive situation for a proper business. There have been several people (clients and non) that have reached out to us personally with questions and comments. I have taken the time to personally address any questions, comment or concerns that were present. So graciously we thank you for all of the business that you have sent our way, but we will not engage in blatant bickering as that is not how we conduct business. We are a top tuner, and here is a short list of EcoBoost accomplishments that we enjoy:

In 2009, before anyone had software, we were tuning the Ford Taurus SHO and Lincoln MKS.
In 2011, we were tuning the F-150 EcoBoost before other companies could even flash it.
In 2012, we had tuning support for the 2013 Ford Taurus SHO while other software companies had nothing available for 6-8 months later.
In 2012, we were tuning the Explorer Sport, almost a full year and a half before anyone else.
First to tune the 2.0L EcoBoost Fusion
First to tune the 1.5L EcoBoost Fusion
First to tune the 1.6L EcoBoost Fusion
First to tune the 2.0L EcoBoost Escape
First to tune the 1.6L EcoBoost Escape
First tune only 12 second Ford Taurus SHO
First 11 second Ford Taurus SHO
First 12 second Ford EcoBoost F-150
First 12 second Ford Explorer Sport EcoBoost
First 11 second Ford Mustang EcoBoost
First with upgraded EcoBoost turbo's
First with EcoBoost Downpipes
First with EcoBoost Methanol kits
First to offer EcoBoost 3-BAR MAP sensor tuning
First 600whp EcoBoost Dyno captured on video
Highest HP EcoBoost Engine on the planet
Quickest Ford Taurus SHO in the 1/4 mile
Fastest Ford Taurus SHO in the 1/4 mile
First to tune 2015 Expedition / Navigator EcoBoost
First to tune 2015 3.5L F-150 EcoBoost
First to tune 2015 2.7L F-150 EcoBoost
First to tune 2015 5.0L F-150
First to tune 2016 Explorer Sport & Platinum EcoBoost
First to tune 2016 Taurus & Explorer 3.5L TiVCT
First to tune 2016 Escape EcoBoost
Fastest remote tuned 2.3L Mustang
Fastest customer owned 2.3L Mustang

 

[stormcrow]

We feel that we have adequately defended our position several times with you. Going back and forth with someone that does not have the car that we are talking about, any mods on their current vehicle and merely wants to battle is not a positive situation for a proper business. There have been several people (clients and non) that have reached out to us personally with questions and comments. I have taken the time to personally address any questions, comment or concerns that were present. So graciously we thank you for all of the business that you have sent our way, but we will not engage in blatant bickering as that is not how we conduct business.

Adequately defended? You've completely overlooked/ignored this post - http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...-65tq-amp-18hp?p=167399&viewfull=1#post167399, you've used misdirection instead of answering pointed technical questions, and you've spin-doctored the whole Q&A into this being about my not owning a Focus RS or having modded my current vehicle. If you feel zero need to answer candid questions on a public forum about a product you're touting and selling, all because you feel offended by the questions, then how can you call yourself a professional organization?

What you fail to realize is that I'm not for or against you. I'm for the truth and against dishonest practices. All of this started because I noticed a +/- 25ftlb torque issue in the dyno graph posted in your Fiesta ST tune thread. Instead of addressing this properly, you tried to spin-doctor it with smoke and mirrors. This is why I continue to try and sort out what your company is doing. The Fiesta community, Focus community, ANY community, deserves to know who they are spending their money with and how the products they purchase will impact their vehicles. Though I'm glad you're answering client questions in private, why not answer them in public?

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Adequately defended? You've completely overlooked/ignored this post - http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...-65tq-amp-18hp?p=167399&viewfull=1#post167399, you've used misdirection instead of answering pointed technical questions, and you've spin-doctored the whole Q&A into this being about my not owning a Focus RS or having modded my current vehicle. If you feel zero need to answer candid questions on a public forum about a product you're touting and selling, all because you feel offended by the questions, then how can you call yourself a professional organization?

What you fail to realize is that I'm not for or against you. I'm for the truth and against dishonest practices. All of this started because I noticed a +/- 25ftlb torque issue in the dyno graph posted in your Fiesta ST tune thread. Instead of addressing this properly, you tried to spin-doctor it with smoke and mirrors. This is why I continue to try and sort out what your company is doing. The Fiesta community, Focus community, ANY community, deserves to know who they are spending their money with and how the products they purchase will impact their vehicles. Though I'm glad you're answering client questions in private, why not answer them in public?

We have no problem answering questions that will lead the community in a positive direction. You have already established by your postings that you do not like us, and that is okay. We will still be here for whatever it is that we can help you with if that time does come. We would appreciate it if you would not try to continually thread jack us, thank you and all the best to you!

 

[Seijou]

It's not battling. It's Q&A. Instead of ignoring, hiding, and/or replying with nonsense, how about directly answering the questions posed? Are ANY of my questions non-technical in nature? No. So why do you continue to ignore them all while replying to those who come to your defense or give you kudos? Do you not want people to have faith in your product? Or is their blind faith derived from the postings of fan-boys enough to satiate you? As a "top tuner" offering "the best performance solutions", one would think that you'd be open and HAPPY to discuss the technical aspects of your tune and how you achieved it. One would expect you would tout all of the R&D put into it.

I get your perspective, but perhaps the thing that you're overlooking is that you come off as very antagonizing (almost bickering). Even though your initial slander of LMS (on the other thread) was quite immature and excessive, the company still came on to answer your questions and defend themselves and their product in a civil manner. Just because you have questions, doesn't mean they have to answer. I think maybe you feel you are entitled to an answer or something, which is just wrong to say the least. Try walking into any other company and demanding answers to a product you don't even own and didn't purchase... they'll just laugh at you and tell you to get off their property. Next time, try changing your approach. I understand you have concerns, but a change of tone could do you a lot of good. Just my 2c.

Edit: Just saw the post by admin after I submitted my post. I will get off this topic.

 

[BoostBumps]

We have no problem answering questions that will lead the community in a positive direction. You have already established by your postings that you do not like us, and that is okay. We will still be here for whatever it is that we can help you with if that time does come. We would appreciate it if you would not try to continually thread jack us, thank you and all the best to you!

I agree with this (highlighted above)...For those that have further concerns with Livernois please PM them directly and lets try to stay on the OP's primary topic...

"Unlocking the RS' Full Potential!"

thank you

 

[OffTheWall503]

[MENTION=5061]stormcrow[/MENTION] - you have continually tried to badmouth Livernois because they answer questions in a way that you find unacceptable. This isn't a good way to join a new community. As far as I'm concerned, they have proven to be a good option for the Ecoboost community. Just because you don't like their methodology doesn't make them wrong.

I keep trying to be fair but you aren't. Please, let it go or keep your opinions to yourself.

 

[BoostBumps]

Guys...Lets stay ON TOPIC please!

And any further "off topic" posts will be removed....

"Unlocking the RS' Full Potential!"

 

[Goingnowherefast]

Getting the twisties of the M1 Concourse in Focus!

How'd you like the track btw? I'll be there August 13th for a track day.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

The cliche' it rides on rails takes on a COMPLETELY new meaning! I think that the car can make even a beginner driver look like a vastly above average driver.

 

[stormcrow]

I agree with this (highlighted above)...For those that have further concerns with Livernois please PM them directly and lets try to stay on the OP's primary topic...

"Unlocking the RS' Full Potential!"

thank you

How are my questions not on topic? I asked pointed questions, which were seconded by MKVIIST, and the response was misdirection and unclear. I'm categorically discussing the topic at hand - the tune Livernois is selling in this thread. I've in no way gone off topic nor highjacked this thread. Why the defense, [MENTION=1333]BoostBumps[/MENTION]?

 

[me32]

Amazing guys

 

[MKVIIST]

How are my questions not on topic? I asked pointed questions, which were seconded by MKVIIST, and the response was misdirection and unclear. I'm categorically discussing the topic at hand - the tune Livernois is selling in this thread. I've in no way gone off topic nor highjacked this thread. Why the defense, [MENTION=1333]BoostBumps[/MENTION]?

I originally had the same question as you.. mainly how the tune was released so quickly, however I'm satisfied with [MENTION=831]Livernois Motorsports[/MENTION] response as they have been testing their tunes on other Focus RS. I'm a very big advocate of transparency on the forum and no one is against you for asking questions or raising flags. However it looks like whatever answers they've provided, you're still unsatisfied because in your opinion they didn't answer your question. At some point this becomes a big derailment because the thread is basically now a debate between you and Livernois Motorsports which will turn off the majority of members who are more interested in the original subject.

The point is, if Livernois Motorsports is selling "snake oil" as you say, the truth will eventually reveal itself when people start having engine problems from their tune and your arguments will be vindicated. As of now, I haven't seen any evidence so far that would substantiate those claims. People who are using their products seem to be happy with the results.

 

[Vanilla2]

Seems fast for an off the shelf tune (or is it a custom tune?)

But these guys have tons of ecoboost experience.

I'm curious as to how the rear end holds up I know the tranny was the tough egg to crack on Evo X MR's and that took a long to make progress, but that may be a whole different animal.

If it were my RS (it's not) I'd hold off on any mods/tune for a while until things got sorted out a bit more, but that's me just being my extra cautious self.

But without the folks that jump in feet first from the get go we wouldn't have something to learn from

I am excited to watch the cars progress and hopefully in 3 or 4 years I will own one.

Thanks for your hard work livernois