Do not use Shell?

[Sam4]

I actually go out of my way to get Shell, if priced and located conveniently. Last couple of weeks I've shelled up in Willow Grove PA and used the PA turnpike back to work and home. NO problems, 93 tune by Livernois. I try and fill up at the same place (Giant), but again, Shell is regarded as one of the best.

 

[Sam4]

Eastern PA has ALL blended fuel, all with corn.

 

[SteveS]

Interesting rabbit hole I just went down researching Shell 93 octane. Turns out there is no research I can find supporting the claim that additives in Shell 93 are bad for turbocharged engines, and there doesn't appear to be anything regarding unsuitability for tuned turbo engines either. So this particular tuner may have just had an experience where he had trouble with Shell gas and decided not to deal with it. However, the actual composition of gas at the pump is highly variable from region to region and distributor to distributor, and even from station to station. Not all Shell 93 is ethanol-free. That's entirely up to the local station and even to any local requirements for oxygenation of fuel.

If the tuner believes that other additives in Shell 93 are giving him problems with pushing his tunes to the limit, the primary distinction Shell tries to make is their Nitro V-power detergent, which is a Polyether Amine (PEA) detergent, rather than Polybutyl Amine (PBA). However, Shell is not unique among Top Tier gasolines in using PEA. Chevron, for one, is a big proponent of PEA (Techron). Shell does advertise they use 7 times the minimum required amount to be Top Tier. Maybe that makes a difference. One of the positive attributes of PEA is the molecule survives combustion (which is how it is able to clean carbon deposits). And that led to another interesting find.

Everybody uses catch cans because of the belief that intake valves get gunked up because no fuel gets sprayed on the intake valve in a GTDI engine. Turns out that's the reason Chevron and Shell use PEA in high amounts, and research has proved it. The amount of PEA that remains in the burned gases is enough to clean the top of the intake valve. The Ecoboost engine (and probably others as well, but Ford actually publicized it) uses a small amount of valve overlap so that the intake valve opens slightly before the exhaust gases are gone. This is enough that the PEA in these fuels can get on the top of the valve, and it actually is able to clean deposits and prevent them from forming.

So maybe detergents in gas do hamper tuning to the ragged edge. Or maybe the Shell stations around where this tuner works supply a different blend of ethanol that doesn't work with his tune. Or maybe there's something else different and he's blaming additives. But it was interesting to read the research.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Tell ya the truth I only assumed a Chevron but I guess I haven't noticed one either. There is that BP near the shell in Doylestown. Going to a little car gathering this Sunday. I'll ask around about fuel in the area (Warminster).

Actually, that BP just (like in the past 2 weeks or so) switched over to one of the indie 'no name' fuels, if we are speaking of the one at the 313 and Easton Road intersection, diagonally across from the Bimmer dealer, which has a no tables Dunkin Donuts counter inside the store part.

I wonder if the Wawa (or even Giant, or Costco) 93 is 'approved', or even considered 'acceptable' by the hot shot tuners, or not.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Interesting rabbit hole I just went down researching Shell 93 octane. Turns out there is no research I can find supporting the claim that additives in Shell 93 are bad for turbocharged engines, and there doesn't appear to be anything regarding unsuitability for tuned turbo engines either. So this particular tuner may have just had an experience where he had trouble with Shell gas and decided not to deal with it. However, the actual composition of gas at the pump is highly variable from region to region and distributor to distributor, and even from station to station. Not all Shell 93 is ethanol-free. That's entirely up to the local station and even to any local requirements for oxygenation of fuel.

If the tuner believes that other additives in Shell 93 are giving him problems with pushing his tunes to the limit, the primary distinction Shell tries to make is their Nitro V-power detergent, which is a Polyether Amine (PEA) detergent, rather than Polybutyl Amine (PBA). However, Shell is not unique among Top Tier gasolines in using PEA. Chevron, for one, is a big proponent of PEA (Techron). Shell does advertise they use 7 times the minimum required amount to be Top Tier. Maybe that makes a difference. One of the positive attributes of PEA is the molecule survives combustion (which is how it is able to clean carbon deposits). And that led to another interesting find.

Everybody uses catch cans because of the belief that intake valves get gunked up because no fuel gets sprayed on the intake valve in a GTDI engine. Turns out that's the reason Chevron and Shell use PEA in high amounts, and research has proved it. The amount of PEA that remains in the burned gases is enough to clean the top of the intake valve. The Ecoboost engine (and probably others as well, but Ford actually publicized it) uses a small amount of valve overlap so that the intake valve opens slightly before the exhaust gases are gone. This is enough that the PEA in these fuels can get on the top of the valve, and it actually is able to clean deposits and prevent them from forming.

So maybe detergents in gas do hamper tuning to the ragged edge. Or maybe the Shell stations around where this tuner works supply a different blend of ethanol that doesn't work with his tune. Or maybe there's something else different and he's blaming additives. But it was interesting to read the research.

Funny, that was going to be my next question, since I have a habit of adding 4 ounces of Red Line's SI-1 fuel additive (which Red Line claims to contain even more PEA than the Techron stuff), every 4th fill up or so, even when using a high PEA content fuel like V-Power.

IF I were able to find a 'usable' 93 besides Shell's (because this 'highly reputable' tuner condemns it sooo fiercely), I was going to add even more of the Red Line SI-1, and more often, to compensate for that fuel's probable dire lack of PEA/detergent agents.

It is kind of strange that one of the 'acceptable' fuels out there is Chevron, when they themselves market/produce a big PEA content product (Techron, which they do put into their fuels), IF this is a major component of the V-Power additive which 'Saint Adam' is blasting as immanently destructive.

I am NOT going to give up the cleaning of PEA for the sake of a few more ponies/'torques', which we cannot use anyway, due to FWD weight transfer, and the resultant lack of traction on the streets.

 

[Lays]

Only thing I've heard is that it's more likely to knock, pre-detonation due to the additives they use. Which is a definite no-no if you want the most performance.

 

[Ford ST]

Are y'all ever going to stop arguing over this?


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[M-Sport fan]

^^^Yes, DONE, as I will just use whatever fuel brand I want (and actually have available to ME, here), and simply avoid like the current plague all of the tuners who refuse to tune my car with those in the tank.

Yup, and I know that all of the devout loyalists to those said tuners will state that they do not need my business, to which I reply, yes, exactly.

 

[FiSTY]

Man... here I've been stopping anywhere (which is virtually everywhere in central Ohio) that has 93.

There's only one big fuel depo in my area... so, safe to assume it all comes from the same place (only difference being additives). Our State Auditor's office are a bunch proper dicks, so highly doubt anyone would risk cheating minimum octane ratings.

Currently running Mountune OTS which I imagine is pretty conservative, but I've noticed no performance issues (or poor feedback from Cobb gauges) with shell. I fill up there pretty frequently considering they have the best beer selection in my neighborhood.

 

[SteveS]

Yeah, that's the thing. If there is predetonation (knock), by definition that means it's lower octane. Octane rating is a measure of resistance to knock.

 

[Economatic]

Interesting, I've never heard this about Shell but I also have not worked with a tuner for years. When I had a Subaru my tuner simply said if possilble fill up at the same place as I did when I filled up the car before the tune.

What's funny is BMW says only to use Top Tier fuels in their cars but they encourage you to use Shell by showing every damn Shell filling stating that will display on the iDrive navigation screen. Of course that's because of an agreement they have with Shell for supplying their oils. But if Shell is good enough for BMW I think it's good enough for my Mountune OTS tuned Fiesta.

 

[scooter123]

In reading this thread I did not see one single mention of the most serious fuel issue. So, just what is this Elephant that everyone avoids talking about? It's Octane Cheating, as in selling 87 octane in the 93 octane pumps. I first experienced this problem driving on the New York Thruway in the early 90's. The car I was driving was a 1985 Monte Carlo SS with 5200 lbs. of boat and trailer in tow. Knowing in advance that engine knock could be a problem I installed an Edelbrock Water Vapor Injection system in the car. Every single time I had to stop and fill up with Sunoco fuel I would have to stop in the entrance ramp and turn the water vapor system up to Max. Because those criminals were loading all their storage tanks with that 86 octane crap. To this day I will WALK before putting any Sunoco product in my tank. BTW, complained to the Thruway Commission on multiple occasions and they did NOTHING, probably because they were taking kickbacks.

What brought this to the forefront at present is another experience with an Octane Cheater with my FiST. Last Friday I took a 350 mile drive from Detroit to Ligonier, Pa to pick up a premium shotgun at Joel Etchen guns. Gas mileage on the way down was 34.1 mpg per the tattle tail. Power also seemed just a bit "off" but rain for most of the trip did keep me out of the throttle. For the return trip I filled up with Amoco gas and the rain had passed so I did let the ponies run a bit going home, my Garmin reported a max speed of 102 at one point. Mileage going home ended up at 38.1 mpg with me doing some Italian Tuning on the FiST.

Fortunately I'm running a Factory Tune that can adapt for low octane fuel. What I wonder about is what do you do if you have a 93 octane tune and you get a tank of 87 octane due to Fraud. Will these tunes protect the engine if you drive the full tank out or do you face a blown engine because some gas station owner wants to pump up his income by committing Fraud.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

I've used Shell a plethora of times when on road trips and NEVER encountered any issues. I think that this has became an Urban myth and some "Tuners" want to place blame on something other than their tune.

 

[scooter123]

In reading this thread I did not see one single mention of the most serious fuel issue. So, just what is this Elephant that everyone avoids talking about? It's Octane Cheating, as in selling 87 octane in the 93 octane pumps. I first experienced this problem driving on the New York Thruway in the early 90's. The car I was driving was a 1985 Monte Carlo SS with 5200 lbs. of boat and trailer in tow. Knowing in advance that engine knock could be a problem I installed an Edelbrock Water Vapor Injection system in the car. Every single time I had to stop and fill up with Sunoco fuel I would have to stop in the entrance ramp and turn the water vapor system up to Max. Because those criminals were loading all their storage tanks with that 86 octane crap. To this day I will WALK before putting any Sunoco product in my tank. BTW, complained to the Thruway Commission on multiple occasions and they did NOTHING, probably because they were taking kickbacks.

What brought this to the forefront at present is another experience with an Octane Cheater with my FiST. Last Friday I took a 350 mile drive from Detroit to Ligonier, Pa to pick up a premium shotgun at Joel Etchen guns. Gas mileage on the way down was 34.1 mpg per the tattle tail. Power also seemed just a bit "off" but rain for most of the trip did keep me out of the throttle. For the return trip I filled up with Amoco gas and the rain had passed so I did let the ponies run a bit going home, my Garmin reported a max speed of 102 at one point. Mileage going home ended up at 38.1 mpg with me doing some Italian Tuning on the FiST.

Fortunately I'm running a Factory Tune that can adapt for low octane fuel. What I wonder about is what do you do if you have a 93 octane tune and you get a tank of 87 octane due to Fraud. Will these tunes protect the engine if you drive the full tank out or do you face a blown engine because some gas station owner wants to pump up his income by committing Fraud.

 

[Typical Tom]

I've quite literally ONLY used Shell 93 in the 44K miles I've had my car (since brand new). It's on the stock tune for whatever it's worth.

 

[Intuit]

BP is the only fuel I've used that consistently made a blatantly noticeable difference in power. Any engine I've stuck it in, had to be wound up like it had a clock-spring... and still would be slow. It also had a funny odd smell to it.

 

[M-Sport fan]

For the return trip I filled up with Amoco gas and the rain had passed so I did let the ponies run a bit going home, my Garmin reported a max speed of 102 at one point.

I take it that you are an 'old timer' (like me) who (like me) still calls BP stations 'Amoco' stations? LOL
(Or are there actually stations still labeled as Amoco, with that signage, in the mid west??)

 

[Intuit]

British Petroleum. I like the oil (Castrol) but the fuel stinks. (literally, figuratively)

 

[akiraproject24]

I take it that you are an 'old timer' (like me) who (like me) still calls BP stations 'Amoco' stations? LOL
(Or are there actually stations still labeled as Amoco, with that signage, in the mid west??)

Haven't seen an Amoco since I was a high schooler up in Connecticut.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

I take it that you are an 'old timer' (like me) who (like me) still calls BP stations 'Amoco' stations? LOL
(Or are there actually stations still labeled as Amoco, with that signage, in the mid west??)

Yeap.....they are making a resurgence!

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