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Fiesta ST Intercooler Info Thread
- Thread starter rodmoe
- Start date
- Tags fiesta st intercooler fiesta st intercooler review fiesta st intercoolers
![[popcorn]](/images/smilies/popcorn.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
Personally, at this point, I do not care which one is more efficient by a few degrees or so of cold side charge air temp on the factory snail setup (with or without a tune), since pretty much ALL of them (whether tube and fin, OR bar and plate) are going to be better than the factory IC, in both one hard all-out pull, and continuous repeated hard driving. 
I just do NOT want to HAVE TO change out the radiator to one of the aftermarket ones RIGHT NOW in order to not be overheating due to not enough frontal air flowing through the IC core to said radiator.![[nono]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_nono.gif "No No [nono]")
Hopefully, what re-rx7 said about most of the coolant cooling being done by the TOP, fully exposed portion of the radiator is the reality in this case, (and WHY I refuse to block it even a tiny little bit with all of the add-on 'accessories' so many do behind the grille on these cars).
I just do NOT want to HAVE TO change out the radiator to one of the aftermarket ones RIGHT NOW in order to not be overheating due to not enough frontal air flowing through the IC core to said radiator.
Hopefully, what re-rx7 said about most of the coolant cooling being done by the TOP, fully exposed portion of the radiator is the reality in this case, (and WHY I refuse to block it even a tiny little bit with all of the add-on 'accessories' so many do behind the grille on these cars).
MANY on here do this, but, it is usually those with at least the DHM tubular crash bar installed, (if not their Race IC as well) doing this mod BECAUSE they are the only ones who could actually see any cooling benefit from it, due to them not having the factory crash bar blocking the whole section which is covered by the un-modded grille.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/
Tube And Fin
"A conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design," says Wang. "Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place. In order to achieve strength, a thick, extruded tube must be used.
"The tube-and-fin core is held together and its seal is created at the joints at the end of the plates, which is usually .125 inches thick. The width of the tubes is less than the width of the side plate. Space is lost where the joints for sealing are used. So a 3.5-inch core will have tubes only 2.87 inches wide."
Unable to maneuver around the machinery, Wang continued, "Also, fin design in the charge side, inside the extruded tubes, was limited by the extrusion machine, which impeded the design of charge side fin geometry to meet individual custom applications. While this design did allow varying ambient fin designs, the charge air shortcomings proved too much of a handicap.
"Tube and fin has a larger leakage rate compared to bar-and-plate cores. Furthermore, tube-and-fin cores are more susceptible to road damage from rocks and debris than bar-and-plate cores; big trouble in front-mount applications. The oval tubes are extruded from thin-wall material and any sort of extreme pressure can cause these tubes to 'balloon.' In today's high-performance industry, high boost levels are the key power."
Bar And Plate
Wang had a more upbeat tone when it came to bar-and-plate construction. "Spearco pioneered bar-and-plate core design. True, the bar-and-plate design is a bit heavier than tube and fin, but this is actually advantageous.
"The core acts as a heat sink. Its ability to soak up more heat is especially useful in stop-and-go traffic. It keeps the charge relatively cool, then is able to dissipate the heat once the vehicle is in motion. Tube-and-fin units can't pull this off.
"A bar-and-plate core can take the damage of front-mount life and endure high boost without flinching. Sealing is superior in bar-and-plate units because the bars and brazing sheets run the length of the unit, providing a 100-percent seal between the ambient and charge sides.
"A key advantage of bar and plate is its extraordinary variety of fin designs on both sides of the cooler. Further, the height of the passages can be changed by using taller bars and fins, which dramatically expands the possibilities for the intercooler designer. A 3.5-inch thick core gets a 3.5-inch row of fins, not the 2.87 inches found in tube-and-fin designs.
"Also, a tube-and-fin design has a lot of room between rows where a bar-and-plate unit can get more rows into a given area with more area per passage which means more cfm and a more efficient unit. As far as big boost goes, the ability of a bar-and-plate core to handle high boost is determined by the thickness of the braze sheets, fins, side bars and top plates."
Spearco produces both tube-and-fin and bar-and-plate intercoolers. With bar and plate being so superior, one has to wonder why. It's all about cost. The tube-and-fin core is much cheaper to produce and is often used in OE applications, which inherently run lower boost levels.
Spearco put a new twist on tube-and-fin cores with its extruded tube design that incorporated the fins as part of the extrusion. In this design, the overall weight was about equal to a bar-and-plate core. tube-and-fin units are cheaper to manufacture.
Tube And Fin
"A conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design," says Wang. "Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place. In order to achieve strength, a thick, extruded tube must be used.
"The tube-and-fin core is held together and its seal is created at the joints at the end of the plates, which is usually .125 inches thick. The width of the tubes is less than the width of the side plate. Space is lost where the joints for sealing are used. So a 3.5-inch core will have tubes only 2.87 inches wide."
Unable to maneuver around the machinery, Wang continued, "Also, fin design in the charge side, inside the extruded tubes, was limited by the extrusion machine, which impeded the design of charge side fin geometry to meet individual custom applications. While this design did allow varying ambient fin designs, the charge air shortcomings proved too much of a handicap.
"Tube and fin has a larger leakage rate compared to bar-and-plate cores. Furthermore, tube-and-fin cores are more susceptible to road damage from rocks and debris than bar-and-plate cores; big trouble in front-mount applications. The oval tubes are extruded from thin-wall material and any sort of extreme pressure can cause these tubes to 'balloon.' In today's high-performance industry, high boost levels are the key power."
Bar And Plate
Wang had a more upbeat tone when it came to bar-and-plate construction. "Spearco pioneered bar-and-plate core design. True, the bar-and-plate design is a bit heavier than tube and fin, but this is actually advantageous.
"The core acts as a heat sink. Its ability to soak up more heat is especially useful in stop-and-go traffic. It keeps the charge relatively cool, then is able to dissipate the heat once the vehicle is in motion. Tube-and-fin units can't pull this off.
"A bar-and-plate core can take the damage of front-mount life and endure high boost without flinching. Sealing is superior in bar-and-plate units because the bars and brazing sheets run the length of the unit, providing a 100-percent seal between the ambient and charge sides.
"A key advantage of bar and plate is its extraordinary variety of fin designs on both sides of the cooler. Further, the height of the passages can be changed by using taller bars and fins, which dramatically expands the possibilities for the intercooler designer. A 3.5-inch thick core gets a 3.5-inch row of fins, not the 2.87 inches found in tube-and-fin designs.
"Also, a tube-and-fin design has a lot of room between rows where a bar-and-plate unit can get more rows into a given area with more area per passage which means more cfm and a more efficient unit. As far as big boost goes, the ability of a bar-and-plate core to handle high boost is determined by the thickness of the braze sheets, fins, side bars and top plates."
Spearco produces both tube-and-fin and bar-and-plate intercoolers. With bar and plate being so superior, one has to wonder why. It's all about cost. The tube-and-fin core is much cheaper to produce and is often used in OE applications, which inherently run lower boost levels.
Spearco put a new twist on tube-and-fin cores with its extruded tube design that incorporated the fins as part of the extrusion. In this design, the overall weight was about equal to a bar-and-plate core. tube-and-fin units are cheaper to manufacture.
Actually that is Ken @ Mountune that originally posted that quote. I have a feeling you're not an engineer that designs racing products, so when someone that works at a company that works directly with FORD posts something based on actual research you should listen instead of just finding an article posted back in 2003 from an editor of a magazine.
Another quote from the same thread Ken @ Mountune:
Link: http://fiestast.net/threads/intercoolers-which-is-better-black-or-silver-tube-fin-or-bar-plate.2021/page-2
To expand on my previous post, I assumed the question that started the thread was referring to the specific application , the Fiesta ST since this is a Fiesta ST forum and not a debate about the merits of tube and fin vs bar and plate.
For the particular application and overall performance, we have found that a tube and fin performs optimally better when you consider air flow requirements for the other heat exchangers in the cooling pack. Additionally continued heat transfer is good compared to typical bar and plate designs that can quickly become heat soaked. As I mentioned, bar and plate type do perform well on short term applications such as a dyno pull. Modern cars have far greater cooling needs than cars of 5 and 10 years ago. Engines run at higher operating temperatures and frontal air inlet areas have become smaller. This makes the requirement for air flow even greater and was just one of the factors that lead us to use the type of core we did. So to be clear, yes bar and plate do cool charge air temps very well but there is much more to consider in this particular application. Cheers-Ken
Another quote from the same thread Ken @ Mountune:
Link: http://fiestast.net/threads/intercoolers-which-is-better-black-or-silver-tube-fin-or-bar-plate.2021/page-2
To expand on my previous post, I assumed the question that started the thread was referring to the specific application , the Fiesta ST since this is a Fiesta ST forum and not a debate about the merits of tube and fin vs bar and plate.
For the particular application and overall performance, we have found that a tube and fin performs optimally better when you consider air flow requirements for the other heat exchangers in the cooling pack. Additionally continued heat transfer is good compared to typical bar and plate designs that can quickly become heat soaked. As I mentioned, bar and plate type do perform well on short term applications such as a dyno pull. Modern cars have far greater cooling needs than cars of 5 and 10 years ago. Engines run at higher operating temperatures and frontal air inlet areas have become smaller. This makes the requirement for air flow even greater and was just one of the factors that lead us to use the type of core we did. So to be clear, yes bar and plate do cool charge air temps very well but there is much more to consider in this particular application. Cheers-Ken
That is exactly why Mountune talks out of their ass. Call one of the them up and see if they can answer a question about Wg, WGDC, Flow rates. They can't. Randy also made a post about making 240whp on 93 on stock turbo. Seriously? We are to believe that horseshit?
Yes, I posted an Article from Spearco. They produce both types of IC cores and prefer the Bar and Plate for obvious reasons. OE uses it to pinch pennies. Stock turbo will it work? Maybe, but a bar and plate will do much better. I live in a hot and humid climate not Seattle. No overheating here nor even close. Never get above 200 even going 85mph in 100+ heat. So the fiesta cooling system is different than other cars? Most of the cooling is done through the top opening. You wanna listen to good ole randy be my guest. Me, I'll stick with what top tuners recommend.
P.s razorlab asked for data. Randy never responded. LOL
Yes, I posted an Article from Spearco. They produce both types of IC cores and prefer the Bar and Plate for obvious reasons. OE uses it to pinch pennies. Stock turbo will it work? Maybe, but a bar and plate will do much better. I live in a hot and humid climate not Seattle. No overheating here nor even close. Never get above 200 even going 85mph in 100+ heat. So the fiesta cooling system is different than other cars? Most of the cooling is done through the top opening. You wanna listen to good ole randy be my guest. Me, I'll stick with what top tuners recommend.
P.s razorlab asked for data. Randy never responded. LOL
![[dunno]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_dunno.gif "Dunno [dunno]"){kind=icon}
You have personal issues with Randy, that is obvious. I don't think Randy is a mechanical design engineer nor do I think he designed the FMIC or made the core decisions and he has a full time job other than the forum. I am pretty sure that the FMIC was done in the UK. So the problem is they have research and testing facts and you have issues with Randy.
I have had a few conversations with Randy, I know he knows a lot more than I do about our cars. You keep harping about 240 WHP like it is the Mount Everest of the stock turbo. Why? I know he does not strike me as stupid enough to jeopardise his job by lying about something like 240 WHP. 240 WHP does not sound impossible if you get 230 at the FW with a mild tune I feel sure with the right changes it can be done. As he is a Mountune Rep on this forum I have zero reason to not believe he knows what he is talking about and has both the parts and facilities to back it up, and zero to gain by lying.
As to the IC, referring people to a very old link having nothing to do with our cars yet backs up Mountunes heat soak statements is not a convincing argument. Facts I believe, animosity causes me to disbelieve. Since Ford allows only the Mountune FMIC as warranty friendly I guess they are not as smart as the "top tuners" either. I agree with Mountune that the so called "cooling" issues seem to be modded cars that change the airflow to the radiator. I will stick with Mountune and Fords opinion that more air flow through the core is superior for street cooling. My performance driving is for long periods of time on the streets and not a dyno run or a single race. I drive in the real world of mountains, valleys, curves and stop and go traffic plus the occasional 90mph for hundreds of miles in the desert or the Dakota's.
I have had a few conversations with Randy, I know he knows a lot more than I do about our cars. You keep harping about 240 WHP like it is the Mount Everest of the stock turbo. Why? I know he does not strike me as stupid enough to jeopardise his job by lying about something like 240 WHP. 240 WHP does not sound impossible if you get 230 at the FW with a mild tune I feel sure with the right changes it can be done. As he is a Mountune Rep on this forum I have zero reason to not believe he knows what he is talking about and has both the parts and facilities to back it up, and zero to gain by lying.
As to the IC, referring people to a very old link having nothing to do with our cars yet backs up Mountunes heat soak statements is not a convincing argument. Facts I believe, animosity causes me to disbelieve. Since Ford allows only the Mountune FMIC as warranty friendly I guess they are not as smart as the "top tuners" either. I agree with Mountune that the so called "cooling" issues seem to be modded cars that change the airflow to the radiator. I will stick with Mountune and Fords opinion that more air flow through the core is superior for street cooling. My performance driving is for long periods of time on the streets and not a dyno run or a single race. I drive in the real world of mountains, valleys, curves and stop and go traffic plus the occasional 90mph for hundreds of miles in the desert or the Dakota's.
OK, given, but, does he have a point about the sustained power capabilities of the tube and fin design, due to NOT heat soaking like bar and plate setups?
When you say "power cars", are you talking about drag race/dyno/street race scenarios where one hard blast is enough, heat soak AFTER that be damned, or sustained hard use, like on a road course, or mountain driving/etc.?
Also, he is correct about the 'flow through' to the radiator being better on the tube and fin ICs, than on the bar and plate deals, no?
I am NOT defending one over the other, in fact, I actually HOPE you are correct since I have a brand new, still in box, uninstalled cp-e IC sitting in my basement, and I seriously want to know what is what BEFORE I either install it, OR sell it, and install the largest drop-in, factory fit tube and fin i can find.
When you say "power cars", are you talking about drag race/dyno/street race scenarios where one hard blast is enough, heat soak AFTER that be damned, or sustained hard use, like on a road course, or mountain driving/etc.?
Also, he is correct about the 'flow through' to the radiator being better on the tube and fin ICs, than on the bar and plate deals, no?
I am NOT defending one over the other, in fact, I actually HOPE you are correct since I have a brand new, still in box, uninstalled cp-e IC sitting in my basement, and I seriously want to know what is what BEFORE I either install it, OR sell it, and install the largest drop-in, factory fit tube and fin i can find.
Well then have at it. LOL if ford cared about performance and not penny pinching they would have made the ic with cast ends not plastic. Ford allows them the warranty because it cant make alot of power. No one is changing airflow to the damn radiator. IT's all done through the top. Keep believing the shit mountune spews. I just took my car on a 1k mile roadtrip in 100degree weather. Guess what....IC temps never changed cruising. 240whp the everest? How about the moon? 230whp on 93? LOL you have just proven the knowledge set you have. Im done.
P.s before you question my opinion of Mountune look at my signature.
P.s before you question my opinion of Mountune look at my signature.
LOL you are getting silly. This is a fiesta...penny pinching allows you to buy the car at the price you did. I think you should throw away your Mountune MRX due to their lack of good engineering...since Mountune obviously doesn't know anything. And BTW that was KEN...I'll say it again KEN that posted the comments in the thread I posted earlier...as I stated in my earlier posts. The only thing you have proven is that you cannot read. You are right, you are done now.
![[cheers]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_cheers.gif "Cheers [cheers]"){kind=icon}
Before anyone respects your "signature" you should first attend some reading classes.......trying to argue a point when you cannot read/comprehend is a losing battle....we are glad you are "done". Actually you were "done" before you started. You lack of knowledge of this car/engine is epic. Let me help your reading difficulties, where did you read Ford designed the IC?Ford did not design the Mountune FMIC....wow.....just wow. Just because you do not have the parts and facilities to do what Mountune has done just means they can do things you can't. Is that your problem with Mountune? They can do things you can't? Thank you for your input, we all got laughs from it!. At least now you know Ford does not own nor design for Mountune don't you? Isn't learning a wonderful thing?
Now this is hilarious. Mountune designs a shitty undersized ic that can't keep charge temps down with any kind of power and people jump in to defend it. The attempt at trolling is hilarious and amateur at best. lol where did I say ford designed the mountune fmic? I stated " if ford cared about performance and not penny pinching they would have made the ic with cast ends not plastic" as in ford IC...the stock one. Lol come on you can do better slick.
Btw I've yet to see any knowledge you have on the engine or anything on this car. Enlighten us. Since you know so much about mountune, how about getting the compressor maps for the turbo. Better yet, call and ask since they know all. I'll wait.
Btw I've yet to see any knowledge you have on the engine or anything on this car. Enlighten us. Since you know so much about mountune, how about getting the compressor maps for the turbo. Better yet, call and ask since they know all. I'll wait.
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