Hybrid turbo

[Stkid93]

Also I should add that below 4000 rpm is actually where our hpfp has the most trouble, as that’s where the most torque is made. In the write up it showed the pressure plummeted in the mid range and then started to recover. (There’s also another write up, on the limits of the fuel system for the fiesta st, and the hpfp is rated in max torque, not max horsepower like the in tank pump and injectors) So it sounds like the jag hpfp was doing its job. Although his tested was done with a much smaller turbo, I imagine the x57 doesn’t have that problem.

 

[Raziel510]

The jag HPFP was flowing great under 4k but anything over 4k I would see the actual frp drop to under 2k psi as low as 1100psi around 5.5k rpm. I'm back on the stock HPFP and the tune didn't skip a beat. Same frp throughout the rev range. I can dig up vdynos if anyone wants to see with Jag HPFP and OEM HPFP.

Current power with just jag injectors is about 300 HP and 300 TQ. I live in deep south Texas by the Mexico border. Heat kills power here so on cool boost weather I'll see close to 300. Hot days I'm at about 280.

 

[Stkid93]

Why would that happen though? That just doesn’t make sense to me. Unless the jag hpfp is actually worse than our stock one?

can you post a link to the jag hpfp? I’d like to do research on it

 

[Raziel510]

Sure it's Bosch 66807

https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/bosch,66807,fuel+pump,6256

More experienced and knowledgeable members told me it would be just like stock and they were right.

I just wanted to see what would happen since it was never done before. I gladly offered my car as a guinea pig.

 

[Stkid93]

Interesting, that is a much cheaper option then going with whoosh’s unit. Whoosh’s unit is rated to 400 wheel + when paired with 30% upgraded injectors. I’ve never even heard of someone trying that rock auto unit until you. I’m glad it all worked out though.

 

[esp_martin]

Interesting, that is a much cheaper option then going with whoosh’s unit. Whoosh’s unit is rated to 400 wheel + when paired with 30% upgraded injectors. I’ve never even heard of someone trying that rock auto unit until you. I’m glad it all worked out though.

if you read the bosch injector thread, there were a few people who investigated and wrote about the jaguar HPFPs. everyone who actually tested/used it recommended against it. it's not like the basic plug and play of the jaguar/bosch injectors. for whatever reason it's not the "same but MORE" like the injectors. there were one or two people who were wondering if there was an internal part that couldn't handle the extra fuel (i think this guess was based on how the aftermarket HPFPs are modified). i'm also guessing if you have a reputable tuner they would recommend you *not* get a jaguar HPFP. you'll have to dump the money on the aftermarket HPFPs specifically designed for our engine.

i can't speak to dizzy saying injectors are pointless without an upgraded HPFP. but adam at tune+ has shown that injectors alone on an ethanol mix are good for 30-40 more WHP. and there are drivers on this forum who run just injectors, no HPFP.

 

[dhminer]

if you read the bosch injector thread, there were a few people who investigated and wrote about the jaguar HPFPs. everyone who actually tested/used it recommended against it. it's not like the basic plug and play of the jaguar/bosch injectors. for whatever reason it's not the "same but MORE" like the injectors. there were one or two people who were wondering if there was an internal part that couldn't handle the extra fuel (i think this guess was based on how the aftermarket HPFPs are modified). i'm also guessing if you have a reputable tuner they would recommend you *not* get a jaguar HPFP. you'll have to dump the money on the aftermarket HPFPs specifically designed for our engine.

i can't speak to dizzy saying injectors are pointless without an upgraded HPFP. but adam at tune+ has shown that injectors alone on an ethanol mix are good for 30-40 more WHP. and there are drivers on this forum who run just injectors, no HPFP.

Monitor AFRs carefully if you go injectors and no HPFP. Jason’s testing showed AFRs approaching 15.0.

https://dizzytuning.com/blogs/technical-documents/fiesta-st-bosch-30-uprated-injectors-part-1

 

[esp_martin]

Monitor AFRs carefully if you go injectors and no HPFP. Jason’s testing showed AFRs approaching 15.0.

https://dizzytuning.com/blogs/technical-documents/fiesta-st-bosch-30-uprated-injectors-part-1

he was only showing data for e50 which is interesting. before anyone @'s me, i agree testing the upper limit and seeing what happens is the responsible thing to do. it just would've been nice to see data at e40 and e30. maybe whenever he has the time to be able to upload part 2?

 

[Stkid93]

@dhminer

thanks for the backup on that.

 

[dhminer]

he was only showing data for e50 which is interesting. before anyone @'s me, i agree testing the upper limit and seeing what happens is the responsible thing to do. it just would've been nice to see data at e40 and e30. maybe whenever he has the time to be able to upload part 2?

Not entirely sure there. @MO15Fiesta ran injectors without HPFP (I think) and can probably comment more on the AFR at top end as someone with direct experience.

 

[Bull Run]

@Stkid93 What will your car be mainly used for? For example, stop-and-go city driving, highways, track, etc?

I originally ordered Whoosh hybrid with ported OEM manifold. Ron offered me a deal on a S280 and Airtec manifold because they been on backorder for a while, and I took the deal. I'm glad I ended up going with S280 + Airtec in the end because:

• I got the car as a daily driver with a target goal also set at low-300's WHP
• Typical AZ gas stations carry 91 oct max, and I heard that 91 oct in AZ, CA, and NV is worse than 91 oct in other states. Having a larger turbo generally allows for more power at less boost/lower quality gas. I was able to hit the low end of the target with 91 oct + WMI, and the high end with E30 + WMI on stock injectors and HPFP.
• Bulk of my commute will be on city highways where cars usually cruise at 65 to 80 MPH if my employer ends the remote work option. While I miss the "donkey kick" of the stock turbo, this combo obsoletely rips on the highway speeds where I can safely floor it on 4th or higher gears. 1st and 2nd gears are useless for hard acceleration anyways, and even 3rd gear gets sketchy.
• Airtec and catless DP will add back a good chunk of the "donkey kick" feel.
• I got Whoosh V1 IC thinking that I'll end up with a hybrid. It works fine with S280 since I don't track the car or repeatedly get into boost. Thus, I don't have a plan to upgrade to a bigger and heavier IC at this time.

Below is the vDyno graph showing results from three maps (91 oct, 91 + WMI, E30 + WMI). I had Cobb catted DP at the time and ambient temp was in the mid 90's. I switched to the ITG intake and currently testing a catless DP as Adam stated that the stock intake and catted DP were hurting the spool.

 

[gtx3076]

@Stkid93 What will your car be mainly used for? For example, stop-and-go city driving, highways, track, etc?

I originally ordered Whoosh hybrid with ported OEM manifold. Ron offered me a deal on a S280 and Airtec manifold because they been on backorder for a while, and I took the deal. I'm glad I ended up going with S280 + Airtec in the end because:

• I got the car as a daily driver with a target goal also set at low-300's WHP
• Typical AZ gas stations carry 91 oct max, and I heard that 91 oct in AZ, CA, and NV is worse than 91 oct in other states. Having a larger turbo generally allows for more power at less boost/lower quality gas. I was able to hit the low end of the target with 91 oct + WMI, and the high end with E30 + WMI on stock injectors and HPFP.
• Bulk of my commute will be on city highways where cars usually cruise at 65 to 80 MPH if my employer ends the remote work option. While I miss the "donkey kick" of the stock turbo, this combo obsoletely rips on the highway speeds where I can safely floor it on 4th or higher gears. 1st and 2nd gears are useless for hard acceleration anyways, and even 3rd gear gets sketchy.
• Airtec and catless DP will add back a good chunk of the "donkey kick" feel.
• I got Whoosh V1 IC thinking that I'll end up with a hybrid. It works fine with S280 since I don't track the car or repeatedly get into boost. Thus, I don't have a plan to upgrade to a bigger and heavier IC at this time.

Below is the vDyno graph showing results from three maps (91 oct, 91 + WMI, E30 + WMI). I had Cobb catted DP at the time and ambient temp was in the mid 90's. I switched to the ITG intake and currently testing a catless DP as Adam stated that the stock intake and catted DP were hurting the spool.
View attachment 54282

I wish I had gone with the V1. The car is noticeably less responsive going from the stock intercooler to the V3 on the stock turbo.

 

[Stkid93]

my car is a daily driver, its my only vehicle. I do mostly city ish driving with some highways as well. which is why I really love torque, the car still feels fast accelerating even if I'm only getting up to 40 mph. So here's what I'm looking for.

Its not about peak numbers for me, its about USABLE numbers. Right now my car makes peak torque around 2500-3000 rpms and by 3500-4500 rpms its lost 30-50 torque, and this is where i spend most of my time. 2500-3000 rpms are really only realistic in lower gears, I would never floor it from 2500 in highway gears and since i really just spin in the lower gears I hardly ever get actually to experience peak torque,

So I want a similar powerband, but i would love to move peak torque closer to 3500. while possibly having some more torque and horsepower. Even if my peak torque number stays the same, I will have way more usable torque because when I'm between 3000-5000 rpms I'm making peak torque. So ill be making 330 wheel torque in the midrange on a slightly large turbo instead of making peak torque at 2500 and losing 50 ft lbs by the time i get to 4500 rpms. So even with the same peak numbers moving the torque up in the band will make the cars power usable and make the car feel so much faster.

So i guess my goal for now would be 260-280 wheel horsepower (maybe 300 on e30) and 300-350 wheel torque around 3500

I hope this all makes sense

 

[M-Sport fan]

I wish I had gone with the V1. The car is noticeably less responsive going from the stock intercooler to the V3 on the stock turbo.

You can actually feel the pressure drop?!?

 

[esp_martin]

my car is a daily driver, its my only vehicle. I do mostly city ish driving with some highways as well. which is why I really love torque, the car still feels fast accelerating even if I'm only getting up to 40 mph. So here's what I'm looking for.

Its not about peak numbers for me, its about USABLE numbers. Right now my car makes peak torque around 2500-3000 rpms and by 3500-4500 rpms its lost 30-50 torque, and this is where i spend most of my time. 2500-3000 rpms are really only realistic in lower gears, I would never floor it from 2500 in highway gears and since i really just spin in the lower gears I hardly ever get actually to experience peak torque,

So I want a similar powerband, but i would love to move peak torque closer to 3500. while possibly having some more torque and horsepower. Even if my peak torque number stays the same, I will have way more usable torque because when I'm between 3000-5000 rpms I'm making peak torque. So ill be making 330 wheel torque in the midrange on a slightly large turbo instead of making peak torque at 2500 and losing 50 ft lbs by the time i get to 4500 rpms. So even with the same peak numbers moving the torque up in the band will make the cars power usable and make the car feel so much faster.

So i guess my goal for now would be 260-280 wheel horsepower (maybe 300 on e30) and 300-350 wheel torque around 3500

I hope this all makes sense

there are a few people here who have had both hybrid turbos (whoosh/x37/etc) and S280s on the same car. they can be the best people to give their opinion on what the car feels like in the midrange of the revs.

i'm guessing your WHP goal is at redline and not at 3500. that said, your driving style does not match up with the hybrid turbos. those setups have torque come on fast and come on strong. although i'm still trying to wrap my head around your driving style. 4th gear i would consider a "highway" gear and if i was at 2500RPM in 4th on the highway I'd be ran off the road. and rightfully so.

i'm just saying with you preferring to drive in the 3500-4500RPM range, that's where the stock OEM turbo makes its living. the S280 will give you what you want but where it sets itself apart is it'll keep feeding you power all the way to 7000+RPM. if you feel like you're missing out on something in the 3500-4500 range then i'm not sure what will help. if all you want is power in the 3-5K RPM band i'd say stick with OEM if you can get ethanol and just get an e30 tune and work on other ways to improve your car.

 

[Stkid93]

@esp_martin I’m already on e30, maybe I didn’t explain myself that well. Yes the stock turbo makes good mid range power, but if you seen dyno charts torque peaks at 2500-3000 and then drops off like a rock. (I attached a picture of a stock turbo dyno as a visual). Look at that green line, by 3500-4000 you have already lost a ton of torque and by 4500 rpm he’s well under 200 ft lbs (and is actually closer to 175 ft lbs). I’m looking for ‘more of a flat torque line/a turbo that holds that torque longer.

So as an example if the stock turbo peaks at 300 ft lbs at 2500 rpm, but by 3500 rpm it’s already down to 240 lbs of torque, I’m looking for a hybrid that still has 300 ft lbs in the mid range instead of dropping like a rock. So a hybrid turbo should be perfect no?

 

[akiraproject24]

@esp_martin I’m already on e30, maybe I didn’t explain myself that well. Yes the stock turbo makes good mid range power, but if you seen dyno charts torque peaks at 2500-3000 and then drops off like a rock. (I attached a picture of a stock turbo dyno as a visual). Look at that green line, by 3500-4000 you have already lost a ton of torque and by 4500 rpm he’s well under 200 ft lbs (and is actually closer to 175 ft lbs). I’m looking for ‘more of a flat torque line/a turbo that holds that torque longer.

So as an example if the stock turbo peaks at 300 ft lbs at 2500 rpm, but by 3500 rpm it’s already down to 240 lbs of torque, I’m looking for a hybrid that still has 300 ft lbs in the mid range instead of dropping like a rock. So a hybrid turbo should be perfect no?

Check out Jeff's videos on youtube Graysxt or something like that. He goes over his dyno charts with an X47 and shows that the hybrid turbos do pull further throught the rev range vs the stock turbo if not as strongly as the S280. I thought his charts looked pretty good. He has a thread on here too but sold his ST a few months ago. His results are partly what sold me on a whoosh hybrid.

 

[gtx3076]

You can actually feel the pressure drop?!?

I definitely did. It's not a big deal, but the car is definitely less snappy on initial tip in.

 

[Bull Run]

I wish I had gone with the V1. The car is noticeably less responsive going from the stock intercooler to the V3 on the stock turbo.

I know that going too big of IC can increase the felt lag but V3 is only 10% bigger than V1 (surface area per the product page) so I don't think it should make that much of a difference. Any chances of boost leak?

 

[Bull Run]

my car is a daily driver, its my only vehicle. I do mostly city ish driving with some highways as well. which is why I really love torque, the car still feels fast accelerating even if I'm only getting up to 40 mph. So here's what I'm looking for.

Its not about peak numbers for me, its about USABLE numbers. Right now my car makes peak torque around 2500-3000 rpms and by 3500-4500 rpms its lost 30-50 torque, and this is where i spend most of my time. 2500-3000 rpms are really only realistic in lower gears, I would never floor it from 2500 in highway gears and since i really just spin in the lower gears I hardly ever get actually to experience peak torque,

So I want a similar powerband, but i would love to move peak torque closer to 3500. while possibly having some more torque and horsepower. Even if my peak torque number stays the same, I will have way more usable torque because when I'm between 3000-5000 rpms I'm making peak torque. So ill be making 330 wheel torque in the midrange on a slightly large turbo instead of making peak torque at 2500 and losing 50 ft lbs by the time i get to 4500 rpms. So even with the same peak numbers moving the torque up in the band will make the cars power usable and make the car feel so much faster.

So i guess my goal for now would be 260-280 wheel horsepower (maybe 300 on e30) and 300-350 wheel torque around 3500

I hope this all makes sense

If you are doing mostly city-ish driving, perhaps a hybrid may better fit your style. It'll be nice if someone with a hybrid can post their real or vDyno results for comparison since I stright to S280 from stock.