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Need help deciding on suspension, Constructive input requested

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#1
First I'd like to say that the Fiesta groups have been the best automotive group I have been in. Friendly and helpful, it really adds to the experience of owning this fine vehicle.

I need some help picking out a suspension. I don't have a lot of experience in this department and only want to do this once.

What I do with my car:
1) Long drives of 4-5 hours
2) Canyon carve
3) Autocross
4) Track days

I have the X37 on order and plan on seeing 275whp, so the the suspension will have to deal with that.
I don't mind the stock stiffness at all. So stiff doesn't bother me as long as it's not teeth rattling.
Im running 17x7.5 215/40/17 Yoko Advan AD08R

What coilovers I'm considering:
1) BC coilovers form 2jr
2) MeisterR Coilovers Probably my current go-to, BC quality with adjustable camber plates
3) Bilstein B14 PSS

Also considering a TB performance or Pierce Motorsports package.

I'm open to any option. I'm more concerned with being a controllable neutral track/street car than posting the best autocross times I can.
Budget is best bang for buck really.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
 


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Palm City
#2
Given your goals, I would go Bilstein. I've had Bilstein coilovers on a few cars and they always provide an amazing ride for a street car with very controlled, flat handling without being harsh at all. That being said, they are a bit soft for serious track use, but I think they would fit your goals nicely. Plus they're quality German dampers and not made in Asia.

I'm running the ST XTA coilovers on mine and they are a little stiffer than stock over small bumps/divots in the road, but it's a less bouncy ride overall. Handling is very flat and I have no desire to upgrade sway bars or add weight with chassis bracing.
 


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Kansas City
#3
ST XTA's here too and am overjoyed. Don't go stupid low on any coilover, you don't want to live on the bumpstops...that ruins the ride and gains of any coilover.
 


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Whittier
#4
Personally, I'd leave it stock I think it handles great . I'd save your money to put it towards your turbo or at least wait till you already installed your turbo to get a feel for whats missing. If your worried about putting power to the ground go with a RMM and stiffen up the suspension Other people have had great luck with springs. But if I had to choose a coil over I'd choose miester
 


LilPartyBox

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#5
I'm running MeisterR and they have been great. I was a die hard Bilstein guy. But given the similar price range, the MeisterR offers the same monotube tech but with adjustable dampening, height adjustment independent of preload, camber plates, and linear rate springs. Also keep in mind that when the time comes to refresh the coils, MeisterR (and BC) offer the parts for sale individually.

I'm 9 clicks from full in the front and 10 in the rear. While it's stiff, it's still compliant. And still leaves plenty of clicks to go full race car stiff if I ever had to.

I'm never going back to Bilstein if MeisterR is available.
 


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Calgary
#6
I too think you should leave it stock, maybe switch the rear dampers and get some bracing.
 


Plainrt

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#7
I happy with my stock struts on swift springs. My car with just springs,15s and front brace was fast enough to beat a decently prepped rx8 in stx class at my last autocross and 15th on raw out of 100 cars. The car acts a lot like stock but with less 3 wheel non sense and is much faster in slaloms
 


OP
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Thread Starter #8
Thanks guys, I don't want to do springs as from what Ive seen(especially with the focus guys) it blows the stock dampers a lot sooner. I do have the RMM, which has helped a ton, recommend every one get one of those. I've found the Bilsteins at 750$ but it sound's like the Meisters are a really solid piece... Be nice if they were in stock :)
 


RAAMaudio

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#9
I have one of the most modded ST's I know of and setup for handling and stopping, not drag racing but was pretty fast on the EFR turbo but had to much torque steer, seems I should of filled the stock pass and drivers side mounts with 2 part urethane before swapping turbos again...

I started out with BC's from 2jr with the 6/5 spring upgrade, it rode far better than the stock setup which is not really salvageable, I would not get springs as the shocks are not valved well and have been tending to blow easily. The BC/Meister connection seems quite evident and both are of really good quality, the German's do not own quality, just look at BMW repair histories though I have had a lot of Bilstiens and loved them all. I am sure BC makes the MR units;)

The swift springs are better than the BC, even they say so, I have the 8/7kg ones now and barely ride stiffer than the 6/5 BC and they keep the body roll very reduced.

I would not add chassis braces except the front two point is good if made right, mine cost nothing as made it from scrap metal, this car is very stiff, tires, wheels, coilovers, bushings, etc will yield far more and not add weight or very little.

There are many great mods for this car but also many mods made to make money without regard to real performance gains so be careful in what you decided to do.
 


Plainrt

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#10
I am sure BC makes the MR units;)

More like they are made in Chinese factory that produces all cheaper coilovers.........not by bc. I have 30k miles of beating on my stock struts. 5k of which on swift springs. Still not blown. I wanna see how many Chinese coilovers last that long before rebuild.
 


RAAMaudio

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#11
You are not correct in your assumption.

A number of years ago I was informed by a very well trusted source that BC made all the coilovers that came out of Asia but not Japan and they kept the best for themselves.

I have had great success with them on more than one project and I have spent more on brands like Moton, Ohlins, etc for just one car than most will ever spend in their lifetime.

You got lucky, others have blown the stock overly rebound tuned stock dampers in a very short time, perhaps the Swift springs helped them last longer but they still are not valved well.
 


Plainrt

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#12
I know your always right.......This isn't my first day at this stuff. I have used bc's in past btw on another car. Also have you thrown the stock stuff on a shock dyno to see they aren't valved well ?
 


LilPartyBox

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#13
More like they are made in Chinese factory that produces all cheaper coilovers.........not by bc. I have 30k miles of beating on my stock struts. 5k of which on swift springs. Still not blown. I wanna see how many Chinese coilovers last that long before rebuild.
Let's remember that iPhones were made in China for years. Probably still are. The point I'm making is that not everything out of China is crap. I put BC coils on my wife's Mazda5 in January of 2014. 3 winters and 2.5 yrs later, after 35,000 miles, they're still going strong. BC has treated me good over the last 2.5 years. I would hold out for the 3 yr mark but i hate doing work in the cold so i'll refresh them while it's warm though i know it's premature. I'm only replacing the damper cartridges and mounts because i'm a huge fan of preventative maintenance and imo 35k of NJ roads and my wife's driving are more than any suspension setup should see ;)

I went with Meister on my FiST after debating to go with BC. I too assumed BC made them but Jerrick insists they don't. And while there are definite similarities, having installed both brands i can't say for certain that MR is or isn't a BC clone. There are subtle differences in the adjustment collars, shock mount construction, the top mount layout, and even spanner wrenches. But the rear shocks are damn near identical to BCs. In the end, how different should a coil for the same car be? It's almost like saying goodyear makes pirelli because they are both round and black.

And even if MR is a BC clone, who cares. BC makes good shit. So much talk about budget coilovers being crap then save up for an Ohlins setup. But no one does. Know why? Because a lot of us daily drive these cars and can appreciate quality at a fair price. Are they invincible at this price point? No. But read up on what it takes to refresh a high end setup like Ohlins with external reservoirs and such. You'll be happy to run BC, MR, Bilstein, KW, etc...all at a DD friendly price. And remember, only BC and MR sell us parts so that we can refresh the coils on our own. A Bilstein or KW refresh leaves your car on jack stands for a few weeks...
 


RAAMaudio

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#14
I am far from always right, in fact I was not happy with how I came across but forgot to amend it and posted it, no offense meant:)

I am correct that a few years back, I cannot name the source as asked not to, BC made everything not made by Japanese companies.

I do not really care where stuff is made any longer as the economy is broken beyond repair so it does not really matter, time will prove that correct, sad to say.

I know the price is exponential when getting into higher end stuff, I paid $8500 for a 3-way set of custom coilovers for my E36 M3 race car build after having BC make a custom setup for another car that worked damn well. The Ohlins are not 8 times better than BC but were much better than the $5k 2-way Motons I had on the Vette.

(I only had a few years of that kind of money, blew it all on cars of course:)

I have pretty good reading comprehension and have seen enough written by those that understand what they are talking about to not bother with looking into the stock dampers on a dyno, not worth it, I did not want to use them, gave them away with 293 miles on them......

MR might not be made by BC after all but BC is big enough to make changes to appear so but the bottom line is how good the products are and the people behind them and I can say that Jerrick really seems to know his stuff though I felt the spring rates he recommended were a bit soft from my experiences compared with the 6/5k BC and now the 8/7k Swifts which I really like on my BC's.

Most of where I drive has very good roads, tracks are smooth, etc so I am using the stiffer springs to lessen body roll instead of sway bars, it is an experiment and working great so far, I have only broke traction a bit over some bumps going pretty hot through a turn but it was kind of fun and easy to deal with slipping around a bit.

Luckily I grew up driving on gravel, dirt, in the snow, rain, and twisty asphalt roads so used to being a bit loose.

LilP, good thinking on the preventative maintenance, I had a set of Motons on the Vette race car I bought to rebuild into a much higher level car and am quite sure they only had a few races on them , two were already blown. One of the main reasons I went to Ohlins and a big enough supplier of them is they stocked all the parts and had a very quick turn around time, with the MR and BC, which both happen to be user serviceble, parts are available as well, funny how that worked out:)
 


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Dallas
#15
I have one of the most modded ST's I know of and setup for handling and stopping, not drag racing but was pretty fast on the EFR turbo but had to much torque steer, seems I should of filled the stock pass and drivers side mounts with 2 part urethane before swapping turbos again...

I started out with BC's from 2jr with the 6/5 spring upgrade, it rode far better than the stock setup which is not really salvageable, I would not get springs as the shocks are not valved well and have been tending to blow easily. The BC/Meister connection seems quite evident and both are of really good quality, the German's do not own quality, just look at BMW repair histories though I have had a lot of Bilstiens and loved them all. I am sure BC makes the MR units;)

The swift springs are better than the BC, even they say so, I have the 8/7kg ones now and barely ride stiffer than the 6/5 BC and they keep the body roll very reduced.

I would not add chassis braces except the front two point is good if made right, mine cost nothing as made it from scrap metal, this car is very stiff, tires, wheels, coilovers, bushings, etc will yield far more and not add weight or very little.

There are many great mods for this car but also many mods made to make money without regard to real performance gains so be careful in what you decided to do.
I so respect the advice you provide on this forum and have a question. My car is used strictly as a DD and I have to travel a lot of highway miles at times. I could live with keeping the OEM suspension but the tire gap and apparent reverse rake (front looks higher that rear?!?) make me kind of crazy. My issue is that I don't want this thing to beat the shit out of me just to close the wheel gap. I'm open to spending the $$$ on coil overs if that's the right choice for my driving habits. What I don't want is a harsh stiff ride. I would say the cushier the better.

What would you recommend from what I've told you? To be honest I was thinking of these choices.

1. Swift Spec R, stock dampers
2. Mountune Sports, stock dampers
3. Bilstein B14 coilovers
4. Meister R coilovers

Any help would be appreciated.


: )
 


M-Sport fan

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#16
I can understand the love/worship given to the BC/Meister coil overs on this (and other) sites for their; price point, functionality, rebuildability, parts availability, etc.

I can even see the total disregard for their country of origin (although I still have my doubts, having seen first hand some utter, abject, S**T come out of mainland China). ;)

What bothers me MOST about what is available for these cars in an <$2500.00 coil over setup is the INSISTENCE by the companies making these products on having the rebound and compression adjustments totally, completely and ONLY tied to each other, and the piss poor (to me at least) explanation by these companies that EVERY end user of their products is just WAY TOO; stupid, ignorant, insipid, or just pain old brain dead to be able to use SEPARATED adjustments to their advantage, or without killing themselves with the end result of their own rebound and compression adjustments. [mad] [nono]

Maybe it's just an excuse so that they can sell a less costly (and MUCH more appealing to the masses because of that) product, and still claim it to be 2 way adjustable, and NOT actually their given reason of the (real or perceived) "danger" of a missed/'wrong' combination of rebound and compression adjustments?? [dunno]

I don't know, maybe these cars (and ALL FWD sport compacts?) are just so different than what I came from that the coil overs HAVE TO be this way?
Where I came from we had drilled into our heads that the combo rebound and compression adjustment dampers/coil overs (like the QA1s/Viking/etc.) were PURE S**T, and to be avoided at any and all costs for ANY type of handling use at all!!!
(BTW; This advise was from someone who has won more national titles in autocross, in many different classes, than most on here were alive in number of years. [wink])
 


MeisterR

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#17
Wow... been away for a bit and missed quite a bit.
Let me bring in a little more of what MeisterR do and why we do it.

MeisterR Springs rate:
We don't just pick springs rate out of thin air (mind you alot of suspension supplier do).
We have a UK workshop with a vehicle dynamic engineer worth over 20 years of experience providing suspension from OEM to Pike Peak race car application.

Some people think we have a very soft springs rate, but actually in the "grand scheme" of things, it isn't that soft.
A lot of suspension go "Because RaceCar" and just pop in stiff springs, and there are a few reason for it such as lacking compression force, or just want to give a stiff ride as that is what they think their customer expect.
This is another reason why many "feel" coilovers will provide a harsh ride, because they have got coilovers that just weren't design for street use.

The MeisterR ZetaCRD coilovers for the Fiesta is actually on the top end of what we classify as a "Fast Road" suspension.
OEM normally go much softer, so our springs rate may seems soft if you compare it to other coilovers; but it isn't soft if you work out the numbers and compare it to a "street suspension".

What that mean is the ZetaCRD will allow you adjust the damping soft for good compliant ride quality, you won't drive 2 hours on the freeway and get fed up with the harsh ride.
Of course, everyone preference and tolerance are different, but that is why we engineer our suspension using vehicle dynamic principle as it provide us a level field to base our suspension specification.

MeisterR Damper
The ZetaCRD coilovers are made oversea, but they are made to MeisterR specification with high tolerance control.
We also spot check our suspension at our UK workshop, and that mean we know if any "raw" parts are not right because we see them.
This is one HUGE difference that separate MeisterR to many other brands, because we are our own workshop, research and development, as well as supplier all under one roof.

We have access to technical expertise that most supplier do not have, and that include the factory that build our suspension.
Everything we do are unique to MeisterR, and all are guarantee under a non-discolusre agreement.
Basically, even the factory that makes MeisterR suspension couldn't use our specification on their own product, because that will mean they breach our contract.

The ZetaCRD damper valving is our unique design, and they are Compression and Rebound adjustment combined for GOOD REASON.
Having combined adjustment is the ONLY way to make a good fast road & track suspension, and if anyone want to say rebound only is best I am happy to spend hours talking about vehicle dynamic with them.

But I will have a quick explanation of why we want compression and rebound combined, as that is the entire basis of the ZetaCRD damper.
The CRD stand for "Close Ratio Damping"



Generally speaking, you want to have a good damper ratio between compression to rebound.
For fast road car, you want it to be around 1:3, down to 1:2 for track use car.
We will go down to 1.5:1, that is normally as far as we want to go; and you will find some race damper such as Ohlins that will go down to 1:1. (which even we think is a bit "out there").

So what is all this ratio?
First, one have to understand what compression and rebound control:
Compression: Control how fast load are applied to the tires. Basically it control how hard do you work your tires, also determine your steering response and ride comfort.
Rebound: Control motion of the car. Basically it control how fast body roll happen, and how "stable" car feel.

For a particular level of rebound force, you want to have a good ratio of compression force; that is what separate a good damper to a bad one.
Say you have the correct rebound force for a car, but very little compression force; what that will do is the car feel planted, but you are not working you tires.
What that mean is you are not making the grip that you should, and therefore you are no achieving performance that you should be getting from the tires.
BUT... it will feel comfortable because you aren't putting force against the tires.

This is where the damping adjustment comes in:
For rebound force, it works with the paired springs rate. A particular springs rate can support a certain maximum rebound force, we call that critical rebound.
For track car, you want to be at 100% critical rebound; fast road will be anything between 70% to 50%.

Rebound adjustment only (assuming it is critical damping is 100kgf, and 1:3 ratio)

If it was design to hit that ratio at maximum adjustment, you will have the following figure:
Compression : Rebound - Ratio
33 : 100 - 1 : 3
33 : 70 - 1 : 2.1
33 : 50 - 1: 1.51

If it was design to hit that ratio at minimum adjustment, you will have the following figure:
Compression : Rebound - Ratio
16.5 : 100 - 1 : 6
16.5 : 70 - 1 : 4.2
16.5 : 50 - 1: 3.1

No matter which way you do this, the long as you have a large adjustment available in the rebound force, you damping ratio will go way out of spec on one end of the spectrum.

Compression / rebound combined adjustment solve this problem because the compression move with the rebound and thus keep the ratio closer to the ideal point.

Okay, this might be a lot of reading.
I just want to bring some info up front and to say that we don't do things because it is a gimmick.

Everything MeisterR do are design with a purposes in mind, backed up by vehicle dynamic principle.
We don't put something on a car and hope it works, we build something for a car because we know it is going to work.

Jerrick
 


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La Habra
#18
From our experience, we have a lot of FiST customers go between the BC and Bilstein PSS B14. Lots of good reveiws and good things to say about both ranging from the daily driver to the canyon and track enthusiast. Lots of good input on this thread as well
 


MeisterR

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#20
The question is what do you want from your car.
In terms of specs, the MeisterR ZetaCRD is similar to the Bilstein PSS10 / B16.
So you get more with the MeisterR, but Bilstein been around longer so they are "name brand".

If you purely looking at between the B14 and say the ZetaCRD, it boil down to how much control you want over the suspension.
Having an adjustable damper such as the MeisterR ZetaCRD will allow you to dial in your personal preference.
Be it comfort for fast road use, or response on occasional track days.
It isn't a singe solution, because there really isn't a single solution for everything and therefore the damping adjustment is necessary.

With the Bilstein B14, they have a set damping so what you see is what you get.
It may be perfect for you, but everyone is different.
If it is too stiff, you cannot soften the damper for uneven road surfaces.
If it is too soft, you cannot stiffen the damper for the occasional track days.

In my experience, generally non-adjustable will hit somewhere in the middle.
What that mean is they can do a bit of everything, but couldn't do anything well.
Otherwise, Bilstein wouldn't need to make the adjustable damping B16.

So it boils down to what you want from the suspension.
Bilstein are not bad choice, generally they do pretty good after market parts (the OEM dampers are often too stiff due to manufacturer's request).
But we can only give you information so you can make an informed decision.

Jerrick
 


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