Stage 2 without supporting mods?

[frankiefiesta]

$1000 for a downpipe? The Cobb DP, which is one of the most expensive, is only $500. Catless versions from other vendors, which should improve efficiency further, can be had for as little as $200. This is definitely not a massively-expensive modification.

I was going to say this... Who sells a $1000 downpipe? Lol Depo downpipe is $180!

 

[DRock]

In for the $180 is toooooo much for 7hp lol

 

[DP03]

Yea maybe I over estimated some. For ME, I would have put on the Cobb, and then paid someone to install it, so I was counting labor. The shops near me weren't familiar with this install, so they would not quote a fixed price, so I estimated around $300 for labor. It was a guess on my part. And then you hear of the nightmare stories of broken bolts, etc.

Anyway, most of what I've read states a few hp down low, and losses up top. I'll call that a wash. So given that, I am not interested in spending anything for nothing. As I stated, this will be a valuable mod when I go bigger turbo. Until then it's a waste of money IMO. I really believe Cobb (big fan of their products) and some of the others have successfully marketed this mod as necessary for S3 on stock turbo. It simply is not.

 

[jeff]

$1000 for a downpipe? The Cobb DP, which is one of the most expensive, is only $500. Catless versions from other vendors, which should improve efficiency further, can be had for as little as $200. This is definitely not a massively-expensive modification.

I was going to say this... Who sells a $1000 downpipe? Lol Depo downpipe is $180!

In for the $180 is toooooo much for 7hp lol

When I heard the $1000 figure my impression was DP plus exhaust. That's what Cobb wants to sell you to get all 7 of those horsepower.

 

[DP03]

No, it would have cost me about $800 just for the DP if I was to have someone install it. I did put on the Cobb catback, with no expectations of any gains, but instead because I like the way it looks and sounds. Adam says 10hp for the catback which is fine cause I wasn't expecting anything. It does, in fact, sound a lot better than stock.

 

[dyn085]

When I heard the $1000 figure my impression was DP plus exhaust. That's what Cobb wants to sell you to get all 7 of those horsepower.

But the same source quoted for claiming a hp loss from the installation of a DP is also claiming 20hp from just the installation of a CBE, which is far more than any other bolt-on part available.

 

[DP03]

But the same source quoted for claiming a hp loss from the installation of a DP is also claiming 20hp from just the installation of a CBE, which is far more than any other bolt-on part available.

Who's claiming 20 hp for CBE? Not Adam, and he's the one claiming the loss, so I don't understand?

 

[Sourskittle]

Who's claiming 20 hp for CBE? Not Adam, and he's the one claiming the loss, so I don't understand?

I want to say it was that the downpipe lost power and a catback ( MP of course ) added like 17-20whp or something like that... But its been a super long time since I saw that thread because I pretty much un-subscribed at that point...

 

[Sourskittle]

If I had it to do all over again?... I'd run a bone stock exhaust ( fear the snail went 11.8/11.9 on the stock catback ) with a
Depot racing downpipe and an electric cutout for racing/placing.

But that is just me, and I totally realize my goals,
Needs, and expectations are different than most people.

Bottom line.... For power, on a STOCK TURBO, your either upgading the intercooler or your spending money on more or less noise OR shiny parts.

If I had a stock turbo... I'd run a stock intake box with a drop in and a stock catback. I'd save/spend as much as I could on the BEST tuner, the BEST intetcooler, and I'd run E40 AND meth injection.

If..... I was on a stock turbo.


Cyborg turbo, TBE, panda TR6 intercooler, drop in green filter.
245whp 293Tq V-dyno
13.3@104mph

 

[DP03]

I want to say it was that the downpipe lost power and a catback ( MP of course ) added like 17-20whp or something like that... But its been a super long time since I saw that thread because I pretty much un-subscribed at that point...

Can't comment on old posts cause I wasn't here. He told me I would pick up 10 with the CBE. And we weren't even talking about CB's. I just mentioned to him that I was considering the Cobb. Adams role with me was to tune my car. I never asked for, and he never gave me any hardware recommendations (except to skip the DP).

 

[Hijinx]

Can't comment on old posts cause I wasn't here. He told me I would pick up 10 with the CBE. And we weren't even talking about CB's. I just mentioned to him that I was considering the Cobb. Adams role with me was to tune my car. I never asked for, and he never gave me any hardware recommendations (except to skip the DP).

Lies. Not you... Just the whole thing in general.

 

[Sourskittle]

If you want it for sound or for looks or for lighter weight, I'm def with you. If you want it for power...... That $400-$500 invested into the intercooler would have double the payback.

And this is all Adam aside

But Adam did make those claims, and defend them. I never disputed those claims. People can make up there own minds if 1/4" bigger piping further away from the turbo has a bigger effect than if a 1/2 bigger pipe with a 90 degree bend in it with a giant bee-hive in the middle removed flows more or less.

Get on the buick grand national, dsm, srt4, MR2 turbo, or any other car forum for any other car built in the world, and ask them... "Does a fart can and 1/4" bigger pipe make a bigger difference than a 3" catless downpipe on a turbo car?".

Unless the fiesta ST is the only car on the entire planet ever built in this way, you'd get blasted off those forums for asking such a silly question. But... People are free to believe who ever and what ever they want to believe

Depot racing sells a catless downpipe for $179. Does that sound like a market you want to compete in for parts sales ?
Now... Catback exhaust..... Its subjective. Ask 20 people which one sounds the best. 20 different answers. And they are NOT cheap. Point is.... If I manufactured or sold parts like that, I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE IN THE FIESTA ST DOWNPIPE BUSINESS. Now.... The $500 for some bent pipes and $120 muffler business.....??? For $500? Count me in...

IF I sold those types of parts....

Just saying what all experienced knowledgable mechanics are thinking, but are too tired to argue about... Because its hardly an argument really.


Cyborg turbo, TBE, panda TR6 intercooler, drop in green filter.
245whp 293Tq V-dyno
13.3@104mph

 

[dyn085]

Who's claiming 20 hp for CBE? Not Adam, and he's the one claiming the loss, so I don't understand?

Pretty sure I'm right-

21.05hp/37.13tq, easily the largest claimed increase in performance that you can add with a single bolt-on without a tune and without a bigger turbo.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/5574-MAPerformance-2015-Fiesta-ST-R-amp-D-Project-(Tuning-Intake-Downpipe-Exhaust-Turbo-Kit)?p=105199&viewfull=1#post105199

 

[DP03]

Lies. Not you... Just the whole thing in general.

Haha . The mod industry has been full of bullshit since I modded my first car. I've tried to research things before jumping to avoid the pitfalls.......So much crap out there its not funny. It's a big business. When I was racing my Camaro SS, a high 10 sec daily driver, I can't tell you how many people spent money on things that didn't help, and lots of times, hurt, performance. From larger throttle bodies (and lets not forget the throttle body spacers) on stock motors to countless "hot air intakes" and 4" exhausts with mufflers more restrictive than stock......the list goes on and on.

 

[Hijinx]

Pretty sure I'm right-

21.05hp/37.13tq, easily the largest claimed increase in performance that you can add with a single bolt-on without a tune and without a bigger turbo.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/5574-MAPerformance-2015-Fiesta-ST-R-amp-D-Project-(Tuning-Intake-Downpipe-Exhaust-Turbo-Kit)?p=105199&viewfull=1#post105199

Except that you need to be on a stage 1 tune... Good thing MAP discloses that when mentioning that gain on their product page. /sarcasm.

 

[DP03]

SOOOO guys, I think we can end this by agreeing that there's plenty of not so honest marketing out there. From ALL companies. And when Adam worked for a different company he may have had an interest in stretching things like everyone else. Now in business for himself, he has no motive to give his advise on hardware. He doesn't sell it.

And after this whole conversation, I'm more disappointed in Cobb than anyone else. I have all Cobb parts (and yes Sourskittle I have the intercooler) and I like their stuff. But I'm not happy that they market, and had me convinced I needed their DP in order to go any further. Simply not the truth.

I credit Adam for saving me that money, and I'm very happy with my car as it sits (until turbo upgrade). And I'm happy for everyone that bought the DP and is happy with it. Everyone is entitled to go down their own path...........

 

[dyn085]

SOOOO guys, I think we can end this by agreeing that there's plenty of not so honest marketing out there. From ALL companies. And when Adam worked for a different company he may have had an interest in stretching things like everyone else. Now in business for himself, he has no motive to give his advise on hardware. He doesn't sell it.

And after this whole conversation, I'm more disappointed in Cobb than anyone else. I have all Cobb parts (and yes Sourskittle I have the intercooler) and I like their stuff. But I'm not happy that they market, and had me convinced I needed their DP in order to go any further. Simply not the truth.

I credit Adam for saving me that money, and I'm very happy with my car as it sits (until turbo upgrade). And I'm happy for everyone that bought the DP and is happy with it. Everyone is entitled to go down their own path...........

That's the weirdest way to back out of a claim than I've seen in a while: claiming that someone was lying because they had a reason (being a vendor), then backing them up now because they're a vendor of something else. I'm sure you see the conflict there. This is a perfect example of why I ignore vendor claims and evaluate third-party info.

Fwiw, the reason for Cobb 'requiring' the DP for stage 3 isn't because of the 'power', it's because of the additional timing and heat. Again, when you make your turbo more efficient, you can do more with it because it's not working as hard. Whether it's worth the additional marginal power gain is up to your discretion, but if you want your turbo to last on an excessively-boosted tune then you might want to consider it a little harder. Be disappointed in Cobb all you want, at least they have some sort of longevity in mind with the parts they recommend to be paired with their OTS tunes.

But yes, at least you saved some money.

Has anyone here actually seen the compressor map for our baby turbo?

 

[dyn085]

Except that you need to be on a stage 1 tune... Good thing MAP discloses that when mentioning that gain on their product page. /sarcasm.

Yeah, it's crazy how many vendors' products gain power when they are using a stage 1 tune and are compared to a completely stock platform...

 

[DP03]

That's the weirdest way to back out of a claim than I've seen in a while: claiming that someone was lying because they had a reason (being a vendor), then backing them up now because they're a vendor of something else. I'm sure you see the conflict there. This is a perfect example of why I ignore vendor claims and evaluate third-party info.

Fwiw, the reason for Cobb 'requiring' the DP for stage 3 isn't because of the 'power', it's because of the additional timing and heat. Again, when you make your turbo more efficient, you can do more with it because it's not working as hard. Whether it's worth the additional marginal power gain is up to your discretion, but if you want your turbo to last on an excessively-boosted tune then you might want to consider it a little harder. Be disappointed in Cobb all you want, at least they have some sort of longevity in mind with the parts they recommend to be paired with their OTS tunes.

But yes, at least you saved some money.

Has anyone here actually seen the compressor map for our baby turbo?

I'm not backing out of anything. My intentions were not to bring vendors into this at all. I wanted to make one point after learning a lot about the DP's for these cars. I do not believe that a DP is required to tune this car with the stock turbo. The stock unit simply does not breath enough air for a bigger pipe (similar to the oversized exhausts not needed as mentioned above).

If you want to believe that you buy the DP for longevity, all I can say is you can have your opinion, but you certainly have no data to back that up. But it doesn't matter. Your opinion is your opinion, and mine is mine. I'm a little curious as to why you seem hell bent on questioning mine. If you are happy with your car, I'm happy for you. Extend me the same courtesy please.

No hard feeling here. Enjoy your ride.

 

[dyn085]

I'm not backing out of anything. My intentions were not to bring vendors into this at all. I wanted to make one point after learning a lot about the DP's for these cars. I do not believe that a DP is required to tune this car with the stock turbo. The stock unit simply does not breath enough air for a bigger pipe (similar to the oversized exhausts not needed as mentioned above).

If you want to believe that you buy the DP for longevity, all I can say is you can have your opinion, but you certainly have no data to back that up. But it doesn't matter. Your opinion is your opinion, and mine is mine. I'm a little curious as to why you seem hell bent on questioning mine. If you are happy with your car, I'm happy for you. Extend me the same courtesy please.

No hard feeling here. Enjoy your ride.

How can your intentions not be to bring vendors in this when almost every single post you've made on this forum has referenced a vendor as either your reason for believing claims or your reason for being upset over a part that isn't even related to the thread?

A DP is definitely not 'required' for tuning this car with the stock turbo, and I'm one of the few that openly admits that. However, your illusions about how exhaust works do not necessarily work out in practice, and you do not do anything but benefit by helping your turbo work more efficiently. I'm not questioning your opinion because your opinion is simply parroted information that someone else has stated, which you've now stated that you think the person was lying, I'm just questioning how much you understand of turbocharger theory to be making such odd claims of lost hp through increased efficiency.

I don't know why so many people want me to be happy for them and their car, but I'm not 'upset' by any means. Your car is your car and I'm not going to tell you what to put on it or openly judge you for the decisions you make. If you make outlandish claims, however, I'm definitely going to question the extent of your knowledge and experience with this exact platform. Take it personally if you want even though it's not personal; you wanted to discuss and I'm simply discussing with you.