Stage 2 without supporting mods?

[DP03]

How can your intentions not be to bring vendors in this when almost every single post you've made on this forum has referenced a vendor?

A DP is definitely not 'required' for tuning this car with the stock turbo, and I'm one of the few that openly admits that. However, your illusions about how exhaust works do not necessarily work out in practice, and you do not do anything but benefit by helping your turbo work more efficiently. I'm not questioning your opinion because your opinion is simply parroted information that someone else has stated, which you've now stated that you think the person was lying, I'm just questioning how much you understand of turbocharger theory to be making such odd claims of lost hp through increased efficiency.

I don't know why so many people want me to be happy for them and their car, but I'm not 'upset' by any means. Your car is your car and I'm not going to tell you what to put on it or openly judge you for the decisions you make. If you make outlandish claims, however, I'm definitely going to question the extent of your knowledge and experience with this exact platform. Take it personally if you want even though it's not personal; you wanted to discuss and I'm simply discussing with you.

Question me all you want. Your assertions about longevity of this turbo without a bigger DP tell me plenty about your experience, but it's not my role to question your opinions. Nor is it your role to question mine. If you find value with mods like the DP, then its worth it to you. And if I don't then thats ok too.

As for "outlandish claims" maybe I missed something but I don't remember making any.

Now lets call this one a day. I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to discuss other issues in the near future.

 

[dyn085]

Question me all you want. Your assertions about longevity of this turbo without a bigger DP tell me plenty about your experience, but it's not my role to question your opinions. Nor is it your role to question mine. If you find value with mods like the DP, then its worth it to you. And if I don't then thats ok too. Now lets call this one a day. I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to discuss other issues in the near future.

I always think it's funny when people think I don't know much about the platform, especially when I think of some of the datalogs that I've seen.

It's everyone's responsibility to question other peoples' 'opinions', especially when those 'opinions' are being presented as 'fact', and more especially when those 'opinions' are simply parroted information from a vendor. We, as a community, should strive to learn and inform ourselves through our own data collection and evaluation, and then we should work to share that information as much as possible for newcomers and people considering modifications in order for them to be well-informed in their decision making. When we don't do that we fail ourselves and each other, especially because many of us have all of the tools and information available to us to collect and evaluate the information we're being fed.

I want people to be happy with their cars and their modification purchases. I don't care whether you buy an intake or a tune or a big turbo or anything else. I don't tell people what to put on their cars or to avoid purchasing any particular part. All I ask and strive for is legitimate information and knowledge-sharing backed with data for others to know and see for peer evaluation. What I will do, however, is question questionable statements-because we can't ever be knowledgeable until we get rid of the garbage we've been fed and filter through what is or isn't true.

We'll definitely have plenty of opportunities to discuss issues in the future, just don't try convincing me that the platform is MAF-tuned, please.

 

[DP03]

Newcomer to this platform? Yup. Newcomer to turbos and modding? Nope.

Your theory is great in a perfect world, that everyone do their own testing. Not practical though, and that's why these these forums exist, to learn from others.

"especially because many of us have all of the tools and information available to us to collect and evaluate the information we're being fed." If you are referring to yourself, please do share. I'd like to see your personal DP flow tests on your vehicle.

It's not like I'm claiming data from one tuner that is in disagreement with all the others. Everyone except you agree on the effectiveness of a DP on a stock turbo. No offense, but since I can't do my own flow tests like you, I'll side with the overwhelming majority here.

 

[dyn085]

Newcomer to this platform? Yup. Newcomer to turbos and modding? Nope.

Your theory is great in a perfect world, that everyone do their own testing. Not practical though, and that's why these these forums exist, to learn from others.

"especially because many of us have all of the tools and information available to us to collect and evaluate the information we're being fed." If you are referring to yourself, please do share. I'd like to see your personal DP flow tests on your vehicle.

It's not like I'm claiming data from one tuner that is in disagreement with all the others. Everyone except you agree on the effectiveness of a DP on a stock turbo. No offense, but since I can't do my own flow tests like you, I'll side with the overwhelming majority here.

You edit quickly, but I'll take you back to post #16 for my personal test-

I can't personally qualify specific parts on my car because I installed them all at the same time, but I will eventually swap out my Cobb DP for a catless DP and will be able to see if any difference exists between the two. I can almost assuredly guarantee that there won't be any loss in allowing the turbo more breathing room, even though I don't expect to see any gains either. Likewise, I can pretty much guarantee that if I that if I throw the OEM DP back on that it will show up as a loss-whether that's in a higher wastegate duty cycle or in actual measured hp/airflow losses.

Anyways, I can say that I've only ever heard one vendor state that there's a loss with a DP replacement and I can't recall anyone else on this forum ever finding that to be true with independent testing. Definitely not the majority. I can definitely state that the sum of my parts adds power over stock as I have definitely logged that on the stage 0 tune and shared it.

Necessary? Nah. A bad idea? Definitely not, especially if you understand efficiency islands on a compressor map and are already operating in an inefficient area...

 

[Sourskittle]

The real question is.... With such epic proof such as a dyno, why are those claims now not being defended, while time was made to post on other threads...

 

[808FiST]

Well, I guess Mishimoto just also chimed in regarding DP in their R&D thread. No HP noted with their DP design also. Guess there are 2 vendors now that say no HP with DP on an OEM turbo.

 

[Hijinx]

Well, I guess Mishimoto just also chimed in regarding DP in their R&D thread. No HP noted with their DP design also. Guess there are 2 vendors now that say no HP with DP on an OEM turbo.

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[dyn085]

Well, I guess Mishimoto just also chimed in regarding DP in their R&D thread. No HP noted with their DP design also. Guess there are 2 vendors now that say no HP with DP on an OEM turbo.

One claiming no hp, one claiming hp gains down low and losses up top-there is a distinct difference.

I would be interested to see what their WGDC looks like in the comparison, but I'm glad they did it on the same tune.

 

[Hijinx]

We are back with more on our Fiesta ST downpipe project. We know you are long overdue for an update, so we’ll dive right in. After fabrication, we read that some other aftermarket downpipes for the Fiesta ST weren’t as successful at making power as downpipes typically are on other applications. We still wanted to test our downpipe designs to see the data for ourselves, and decide if the downpipe was worth manufacturing for the Fiesta ST.

After testing was completed, the data confirmed our suspicions that the Fiesta ST is pretty darn efficient on its own, and the addition of a downpipe did not show any gains in power. Even still, we have decided to kick this into production for those who want the sound benefit, and for those who have more modified Fiesta STs.

A tune will be required to run this downpipe, and of course actual power gains will depend the tune itself and the supporting modifications to your ST.

The wait is over; we are gearing up for a pre-sale! Stay tuned within the week for more information on this, as well as photos of the completed Fiesta ST downpipe.

Curiouser and curiouser. This post can be found in the Mishi DP thread. I didn't want to drag Mishimoto into whats going on over here.

 

[Sourskittle]

Pretty sure I said if your going to go with a downpipe on the stock turbo, your much better off investing that money towards a better intercooler ( do it once ). But to change the catback while leaving the stock downpipe in place is just silly. 30 years of turbo car MECHANICS have taught us that. And anything that says other wise, I take as pure marketing. But people really are free to believe who ever and what ever they want. The question is.... Who is going the fastest? Right.


Cyborg turbo, TBE, panda TR6 intercooler, drop in green filter.
245whp 293Tq V-dyno
13.3@104mph

 

[Hijinx]

Pretty sure I said if your going to go with a downpipe on the stock turbo, your much better off investing that money towards a better intercooler ( do it once ). But to change the catback while leaving the stock downpipe in place is just silly. 30 years of turbo car MECHANICS have taught us that. And anything that says other wise, I take as pure marketing. But people really are free to believe who ever and what ever they want. The question is.... Who is going the fastest? Right.


Cyborg turbo, TBE, panda TR6 intercooler, drop in green filter.
245whp 293Tq V-dyno
13.3@104mph

I'll answer that even though I know it's rhetorical... The fastest of us don't participate much because the majority of the conversation here is irrelevant. If I may, I'll sum the forum up with one phrase: "In my opinion X is best, because it feels best." Replace "X" with exhaust, BOV or Stage number.

 

[808FiST]

Hahaha... Give the community sometime. People will come around, I think.

I'll answer that even though I know it's rhetorical... The fastest of us don't participate much because the majority of the conversation here is irrelevant. If I may, I'll sum the forum up with one phrase: "In my opinion X is best, because it feels best." Replace "X" with exhaust, BOV or Stage number.

 

[808FiST]

Hmm, may have been mistaken, but I could have sworn he said it did not produce any significant HP in the MAP R&D thread?

One claiming no hp, one claiming hp gains down low and losses up top-there is a distinct difference.

I would be interested to see what their WGDC looks like in the comparison, but I'm glad they did it on the same tune.

 

[dyn085]

Hmm, may have been mistaken, but I could have sworn he said it did not produce any significant HP in the MAP R&D thread?

From a few posts earlier-

Well, the FMIC is probably the most important bolt on. Increased air flow is necessary with more aggressive than stock tunes. However, after being Protuned by Adam, I have learned not to take "required" mods for granted. He actually LOSES power with the Cobb or aftermarket downpipe. I think Cobb has convinced people that it's necessary when it's not. I'm a big Cobb fan, and all of my mods through S3 are Cobb. But I kept the stock DP on Adams recommendation and I trust his advice as a leader in Etunes for the Ecoboost motors. Once a bigger turbo is installed, absolutely necessary but not before. Saved me $$$$ until I upgrade the turbo.

 

[808FiST]

Not DP03. I meant Adam from the MAP R&D thread.

From a few posts earlier-

 

[dyn085]

Not DP03. I meant Adam from the MAP R&D thread.

I would assume that what Adam is telling people would count, but I guess I'll post this then-

There isn't anything in the tune that needs to be adjusted, the timing is good, the AFR is good, and the boost is solid. If you were to tune after the downpipe you wouldn't be showing the gains of the downpipe itself, you would be showing the gains of a tune.

I'm very very heavy into the tuning side of these cars, if there would of been adjustments needed I would of made them for sure. However we are comparing apples to apples here.



Or you can opt for an E-tune to tune for the best combination of parts on your car. I personally own the 2015 FiST we are doing testing on, I will be running stock downpipe with our intake, intercooler, and catback. I will not be upgrading the downpipe until our turbo kit is finished.



You can choose to, but I am still confident a intake/downpipe/catback/intercooler/tune car would be slower than a intake/catback/intercooler/tune car.

Our catback bolts up to stock downpipe. I'm confident, from my testing, that you will make more power with the stock downpipe with the stock turbo. I wouldn't upgrade the stock downpipe until you do a turbo upgrade like ATP or Cyborg.

Making more power on a stock downpipe means that you're losing power by upgrading it. While it's a twisted way of saying it, there's not any other way it can be taken.

 

[Sourskittle]

The downpipe thing... Its over. Its not even an conversation and more. Its such a simple no-brainer THAT EVEN DYN085 AND I AGREE ON IT, and that's like being happy to goto the dentist.

I really want to see THIS defended. That is a large power gain across the entire powerband with an "apples to apples" tune. By just bolting on a fart can system.

 

[timboslice]

The downpipe thing... Its over. Its not even an conversation and more. Its such a simple no-brainer THAT EVEN DYN085 AND I AGREE ON IT, and that's like being happy to goto the dentist.

I really want to see THIS defended. That is a large power gain across the entire powerband with an "apples to apples" tune. By just bolting on a fart can system.

Has anyone done a before and after VD with the MAP cbe? I don't ever recall seeing one.

I'm pretty sure FSwerks and cpe also had some pretty outrageous claims for their catbacks. Again, I'm not sure if anyone ever independently verified them.

 

[Hijinx]

[MENTION=757]timboslice[/MENTION] I know of one guy and he did three datalog pulls that averaged to 199/232 in vDyno. But, he had no stage 0 vDyno to compare against. It's yet to be known if he will he do a stage 0 and post up his findings.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

 

[dyn085]

It's not just CBE's, it's most parts in general. Lots of claims are made with 'real' dynamometers using completely stock as a baseline and the part plus stage 1 tune for the comparison. Realistically, every single part should have a 'before' that's done without the upgrade and utilizing the stage 1 tune (to remove stock load limits) and then an 'after' with the part installed using the exact same stage 1 tune. Only when a part is compared on the exact same 'stage' tune will any possible gains that can be directly attributed to the part be legitimate.