What is the next step for better lap times (except more seat time obviously)

[codestp202]

Hey all, I'm prepping for my next track day, and I've been messing with tire pressures, setups ect.

I'm trying to reduce understeer, and promote the tendency of lift off oversteer, and oversteer in general. Being a FWD car, it will never be as oversteer happy as some of my Front engine, rear wheel drive competitors. I find my biggest issue is with long very high speed sweepers. 80-90mph sweepers I find the car wants to run wide, and I have to dab some brake, or lift off the throttle to get the car to turn in. In a long right hand sweeper, I can feel all the weight load up on the front left tire. Besides more seat time, what is the next "Must have" handling mod to get the most out of the car? My signature is up to date with all my mods. Would like to know what your advice is!

Sway bar? Pierce bracing? I can't afford coilovers at this time, as I'd rather spend it on track time. I'm interested in any suggestions, but what will be the most bang for my buck?

The car in track trim has everything behind the driver seat removed, no rear sets, no rear flooring ect. Also I do have a race seat up front reducing some front weight. However, with the Mishi rad, my oil cooler, and the bigger intercooler it puts more weight up front. I will be running Federal RS-RR 215/40/17's for my Laguna day. Hot pressures that I'm going to start on is 36 front, 34 rear and go from there. With the extra weight up front, I wonder if I should raise the front pressures by 1 more PSI to make up for weight. If anyone has pressure ideas I'm open, I've played around with pressures a bit up and down a few psi and this seems to run the best on my last tires.

 

[awwwww_shift]

Seat time. But for serious, seat time is usually the best answer.

As far as suspension setup goes, a set of camber bolts(or crash bolts) may help a bit with some of the higher speed issues, and maybe a set of koni sport shocks would help you dial in your current setup further without shelling out for a full coilover setup.

One thing you may try at your next event, is grab a IR temp gun, and see how the tires are heating up across the rubber. Ideally you'd want to be within 10'ish degrees from inside to outside, but being camber limited, you'll likely be seeing 25-40'ish difference. The camber bolts and adjusting for more front static camber will help this.

Hope that helps!

 

[sidewaysallday]

Other than the obligatory "seat time" answer - probably some TB Performance/Pierce bracing would help and like Shift said camber. At the end of the day you can't beat physics and with a front wheel drive car there will be a tenancy to understeer. You have the right idea trying to throttle steer the car when it's understeering. Have you played with trail-braking at all? It wouldn't really be applicable to the long sweepers but keeping as much weight on the front at turn-in/mid-corner will be your friend. I'd also not really worry so much on tire pressure and more on the driving itself. Realistically if any of us were able to feel a 1 PSI difference in street tires then we wouldn't be doing HPDEs, we'd be getting paid to drive. Not to say that you shouldn't monitor your pressures and bleed some off if your getting greasy or put some in if your rolling your tires. At the end of the day its about having fun, learning something and going home shiny side up!

 

[KKaWing]

I remember reading somewhere Pierce said the front needs 1.7-1.8* of negative camber for the understeer while still maintaining streetability in terms of wear.

 

[AlrightyThen]

As others have said, camber bolts that allow for more negative camber will help with tire wear and allow you to run a tiny bit less psi. Other than that I'd go back to the stock coil springs. I've had H&R lowering springs on my fiesta that were progressive rate (I think the eibachs are too) and it made my car handle like poop. Other than that an LSD in the front would probably be awesome, other members have talked about what a difference it makes, but I can't say from experience. Long and fast corners are like a fwd's Achilles heal because you want to get on the power really early and then you loose front end grip.

 

[sidewaysallday]

^Very true - I've heard putting an LSD in does wonders for corner exit grip.

 

[Typical_Dodson]

Read some of Ross Bentley's "Speed Secrets" books, and listen to his weekly podcast. Learn as much as you can about driving technique.

Play Forza/Gran Turismo. If you have a wheel and pedal setup, even better. The simulators are not a direct comparison to real life, but its a great way to get some artificial seat time.

Resist the urge to throw money at the car hoping to gain an edge.

 

[codestp202]

All good advice. The seat time will take care of itself. I've been averaging a track day every two months. I do trail brake with very good results. I really only see the understeer issue in these long sweepers. The long sweepers after bus stop at Buttonwillow and turn 2 at thunderhill are my biggest issues. I have gone off track once for each corner. I'm definitely at the edge of traction on the old tires and only way to flip the car back in is lift off oversteer or dab some brake while I'm on power. Fwd is going to do that. However, tire pressure plays a huge role and I can't seem to find real data on what people are running at the track. I play project cars quite a bit but I don't have the room for a Sim right now.

 

[codestp202]

Seat time. But for serious, seat time is usually the best answer.

As far as suspension setup goes, a set of camber bolts(or crash bolts) may help a bit with some of the higher speed issues, and maybe a set of koni sport shocks would help you dial in your current setup further without shelling out for a full coilover setup.

One thing you may try at your next event, is grab a IR temp gun, and see how the tires are heating up across the rubber. Ideally you'd want to be within 10'ish degrees from inside to outside, but being camber limited, you'll likely be seeing 25-40'ish difference. The camber bolts and adjusting for more front static camber will help this.

Hope that helps!

Really good advice. I'll bring one next time to measure tires and brakes. I'm in the process of setting up some brake ducting so I can run on the hottest days with no brake issues.

 

[codestp202]

I remember reading somewhere Pierce said the front needs 1.7-1.8* of negative camber for the understeer while still maintaining streetability in terms of wear.

Some more camber should help, I can always pick up the cheap camber bolts for up front which will add 1.5 degrees. How about toe? What is everyone running?

 

[codestp202]

I remember reading somewhere Pierce said the front needs 1.7-1.8* of negative camber for the understeer while still maintaining streetability in terms of wear.

Some more camber should help, I can always pick up the cheap camber bolts for up front which will add 1.5 degrees. How about toe? What is everyone running?

 

[Typical_Dodson]

However, tire pressure plays a huge role and I can't seem to find real data on what people are running at the track. I play project cars quite a bit but I don't have the room for a Sim right now.

Different tires require different pressures, and different kinds of motorsport require different pressures as well.

From my autocross perspective on Zii Star Specs, I run 34-36 up front and 10-12psi higher in the rear to achieve a decent amount of rotation. I borrowed some R888R's from a friend and had those at 50+psi in the front to prevent rolling over onto the sidewall.

The cheapest way to find proper pressure is to chalk the tire from the shoulder onto the sidewall. If after a lap the chalk is all gone, the pressure is too low and you're rolling onto the sidewall. If the chalk doesn't wear off much at all, the pressure is too high.

The best way to find optimal tire pressure is to use a probe gauge to see what the tread temperatures are on the inside, middle, and outside of the tire. Google can help you find out how to dial in pressures using the probe.

 

[codestp202]

Different tires require different pressures, and different kinds of motorsport require different pressures as well.

From my autocross perspective on Zii Star Specs, I run 34-36 up front and 10-12psi higher in the rear to achieve a decent amount of rotation. I borrowed some R888R's from a friend and had those at 50+psi in the front to prevent rolling over onto the sidewall.

The cheapest way to find proper pressure is to chalk the tire from the shoulder onto the sidewall. If after a lap the chalk is all gone, the pressure is too low and you're rolling onto the sidewall. If the chalk doesn't wear off much at all, the pressure is too high.

The best way to find optimal tire pressure is to use a probe gauge to see what the tread temperatures are on the inside, middle, and outside of the tire. Google can help you find out how to dial in pressures using the probe.

The probes are really cool. I have definitely made the mistake of running too low up front when I was messing with my pressures at the last track day. Wore off a bunch of the lettering on my sidewalls lol. I'll bring some chalk with me next time.

 

[awwwww_shift]

Different tires require different pressures, and different kinds of motorsport require different pressures as well.

From my autocross perspective on Zii Star Specs, I run 34-36 up front and 10-12psi higher in the rear to achieve a decent amount of rotation. I borrowed some R888R's from a friend and had those at 50+psi in the front to prevent rolling over onto the sidewall.

Also, keep in mind, the tire may seem to like one thing based on looks, but feel and grip may like something else. I've seen tires(old school Azenis 215's) that liked super low pressures, and would seem to be rubbing on the sidewalls a bit more than I would have liked, but high pressures with "nicer" tire wear were something like 2'ish seconds slower than the lower pressures.

If you're not worried about times at this point, go for tire wear. But if times are your thing, try for good wear, but the clock will be the final deciding factor.

Hope that helps.

 

[FloresRacing]

I have done swift springs, tb performance trunk brace. Car handles great. I also have -2.5 camber. Since I installed the trunk brace I have little to no understeer now and very minimal oversteer.

 

[AlrightyThen]

I have zero toe -2 deg camber. The dude that did my alignment wanted to put some toe in into it, said it would wander at zero, but I've never noticed any wandering. I figured zero would help with tire wear on the street.

 

[green_henry]

I haven't tracked my FiST yet, but I have tracked my TSX at Thunderhill many times. I maxed out the stock camber adjustment on the TSX at 2 degrees in front and haven't experienced any tire wear issues. Roger Kraus Racing in Castro Valley specializes in track alignments and did mine; I'd recommend giving them a try.

 

[2fast]

I do mostly autocross, but have driven 100 miles out on track so far with the FiST. Honestly in stock form i thought the car was absolutely incredible. The stock spring/shock combo with bridgestone re71r were amazing. Most of my high speed corners at 70-90mph the car would 4 wheel slide, which was extremely predictable and the car would stay pointed the direction i want to go.

I'm not sure if you have tracked the car on the stock springs, but maybe those Eibach springs have something to do with your balance. Obviously if you plan on keeping those installed, then it sounds like you are going to be modifying other things to get it back to where it should be and the other statements in this thread make sense.