Stereo questions

[Fosters]

I've done a few searches and while I can find stuff close to my questions can't find anything concrete - I'm guessing the forum search function filters out really short words (like 2 ohm)... So here are my questions:

1. The factory speakers are 4ohm, anyone try some of the JBLs with the 2 - 2.3 - 2.9 ohm loads? Have you had any issues with them?
2. Is there a factory crossover somewhere or are the tweeters crossed over at the deck (aka they get their own channel?) or are they in line with the woofer with some kinda bass blocker capacitor in the way?
3. I found the wiring diagram everywhere on the site with the color for the speaker wires... but is there a wire loom somewhere that has all of them - without going behind the stereo? Or do I absolutely have to get that out? seems like a pain in the rear.
4. A lot of you have done a sub amp... Has anyone done a 5 channel amp with high level inputs? I'm debating doing that for starters and maybe if it doesn't sound right, then add a DSP... DSP is more $ than I'd like to spend right now...
5. Anyone find any tweeters (or component sets with tweeters) that are a direct fit to our stock location? I know the stock location isn't ideal, but messing with the a pillars seems like another pain in the rear... and I'm lazy

Thanks in advance!

 

[mrdabbs]

I did a 5 channel and dsp in my car


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[Fosters]

What DSP did you end up going with, anything cheaper - say under 200 bucks?

 

[mrdabbs]

I have a Rockford Fosgate 360.3. I like it but if I were to redo I would probably try the JL Tweek. I have another 360.3 that I need to send to Rockford to have them service it. I'll probably sell after it comes back but it'll be more than $200


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[mrdabbs]

To do it right with the JL you would want to use the "fix" and then the "Tweek"


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[Fosters]

Yeah, that's way out of the budget for now. I think I'll stick to an amp with high level inputs (never really liked adding line output converters) and then at a later date do it "right" with a proper dsp. Any insight on the other questions? Do i need to remove the screen to get access to the wire loom with all of the speaker wires?

 

[LedRobster]

I used a set of JBL GTO608C's in the front and they were a direct fit. They've worked great so far.

For wiring, i believe the midrange speaker gets a full range signal which piggybacks up to the tweeter with has an inline filter to cut the low end.

Also, if for some reason you don't want to hack up the factory speakers you can use these mounting adapters: http://www.metraonline.com/part/82-5604 The middle ring in the picture, you will need to cut off two small orientation pins.

Wiring:

Left Front Speaker Positive Wire (+): White
Left Front Speaker Negative Wire (-): White/Brown
Right Front Speaker Positive Wire (+): White/Violet
Right Front Speaker Negative Wire (-): White/Orange

Left Rear Speaker Positive Wire (+): White/Green
Left Rear Speaker Negative Wire (-): Brown/Yellow
Right Rear Speaker Positive Wire (+): Brown/White
Right Rear Speaker Negative Wire (-): Brown/Blue

 

[mrdabbs]

I would have to think about that. It's been like a year and a half since I did the initial install. I think we pulled signal from behind the head unit but I would have to ask my friend if he remembers. As for the other questions:
1. I have no idea as I ditched the factory speakers. I'm assuming they are 4ohm but not sure. Going to a lower resistance may overdrive the factory head unit but once again I don't know it's specs not sure.

2. From what I remember the was some kind of bass capacitor on the tweeter. The factory head unit does add equalization that rolls off the bass significantly. One of the reasons why just adding an amp sub doesn't give that good of results in terms of sq.

3. Best behind the head unit

4. Previously answered. You can see some of my photos if you do a search.

5. The factory tweeter location is terrible for sq. I place my tweeters in the sail panel window opening. It's a total pain but extremely worth it in terms of sq. I'm going to redo mine again and do a 3 way. Tweeter and midrange in the sail and keep the 6.5" mid bass in the door. But you can get very good sq with just a 2 way setup. I did not delete the rear speakers but they are not in use. Maybe way later down the line with a different processor I may use them as rear ambient fill.


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[Fosters]

I used a set of JBL GTO608C's in the front and they were a direct fit. They've worked great so far.

Awesome, that's what I was eyeballing, along with some JBL coax's for the rear. Running off the stock head unit or an amp?

I would have to think about that. It's been like a year and a half since I did the initial install. I think we pulled signal from behind the head unit but I would have to ask my friend if he remembers. As for the other questions:
1. I have no idea as I ditched the factory speakers. I'm assuming they are 4ohm but not sure. Going to a lower resistance may overdrive the factory head unit but once again I don't know it's specs not sure.

2. From what I remember the was some kind of bass capacitor on the tweeter. The factory head unit does add equalization that rolls off the bass significantly. One of the reasons why just adding an amp sub doesn't give that good of results in terms of sq.

3. Best behind the head unit

4. Previously answered. You can see some of my photos if you do a search.

5. The factory tweeter location is terrible for sq. I place my tweeters in the sail panel window opening. It's a total pain but extremely worth it in terms of sq. I'm going to redo mine again and do a 3 way. Tweeter and midrange in the sail and keep the 6.5" mid bass in the door. But you can get very good sq with just a 2 way setup. I did not delete the rear speakers but they are not in use. Maybe way later down the line with a different processor I may use them as rear ambient fill.


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Awesome, thanks for the help. I realize the factory location is terrible for imaging, but I have a bad experience from modifying stock panels and screwing up placement... and that happened with a Mercury Marauder, panels I couldn't find anymore Maybe if I get a set of pillars before I screw mine up, as backup, then I'll consider doing it

 

[mrdabbs]

I think new pillars through Tasca which I believe are a vendor here are about $100 bucks.


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[LedRobster]

Awesome, that's what I was eyeballing, along with some JBL coax's for the rear. Running off the stock head unit or an amp?

Stock unit. I'm sure you could get way more sound out of them with an amp, but the stock unit is plenty for me.

Also if you decide to skip amping everything I can suggest this guy for some low end fill. Super low profile and it makes a lot of sound even under the trunk floor.

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/details/ps-8

 

[Fosters]

I'm not sold on those prepackaged plastic enclosures just yet... I figured if I do something it'll be out of MDF, and it'll either be a shallow 12 or some normal 6.5 subs.. I need to measure the space under the floor of the trunk, fire up WinISD and figure out what i can get the flattest response out of.

 

[mrdabbs]

Check out Stereo Integrity BM Mrk 4. They don't make them anymore but they are regarded as the highest sq shallow mount sub ever. Approx 450 watts power handling 12" and only requiring a .5cu box. I could find one at the time so I went with JL's tw5. Another great shallow mount


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[Fosters]

Check out Stereo Integrity BM Mrk 4. They don't make them anymore but they are regarded as the highest sq shallow mount sub ever. Approx 450 watts power handling 12" and only requiring a .5cu box. I could find one at the time so I went with JL's tw5. Another great shallow mount


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They look nice, but pretty hard to find. Ended up ordering a pioneer shallow 12 which will likely end up going in the truck (2015 f350 crew cab dually, for 8000lbs, and as big as the thing is, there's zero room for a sub in there, sigh...) after the Fiesta... amp wise I'm gonna do 2 separate ones, JL's JX line - 400/4 and 500/1 in the fiesta, and will see how that comes out. I think I'm gonna end up ordering 2 of the sundown 6.5s... not a real SQ sub but I'm not going for studio sound in this thing anyway.

Here's the vid that kinda sold me on these things:

[video=youtube;BXiE67bUA-w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXiE67bUA-w[/video]

 

[mrdabbs]

They look nice, but pretty hard to find. Ended up ordering a pioneer shallow 12 which will likely end up going in the truck (2015 f350 crew cab dually, for 8000lbs, and as big as the thing is, there's zero room for a sub in there, sigh...) after the Fiesta... amp wise I'm gonna do 2 separate ones, JL's JX line - 400/4 and 500/1 in the fiesta, and will see how that comes out. I think I'm gonna end up ordering 2 of the sundown 6.5s... not a real SQ sub but I'm not going for studio sound in this thing anyway.

Here's the vid that kinda sold me on these things:

[video=youtube;BXiE67bUA-w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXiE67bUA-w[/video]

Sounds great! Keep us posted on what you do.


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[antarctica24]

I've done a few searches and while I can find stuff close to my questions can't find anything concrete - I'm guessing the forum search function filters out really short words (like 2 ohm)... So here are my questions:

1. The factory speakers are 4ohm, anyone try some of the JBLs with the 2 - 2.3 - 2.9 ohm loads? Have you had any issues with them?
2. Is there a factory crossover somewhere or are the tweeters crossed over at the deck (aka they get their own channel?) or are they in line with the woofer with some kinda bass blocker capacitor in the way?
3. I found the wiring diagram everywhere on the site with the color for the speaker wires... but is there a wire loom somewhere that has all of them - without going behind the stereo? Or do I absolutely have to get that out? seems like a pain in the rear.
4. A lot of you have done a sub amp... Has anyone done a 5 channel amp with high level inputs? I'm debating doing that for starters and maybe if it doesn't sound right, then add a DSP... DSP is more $ than I'd like to spend right now...
5. Anyone find any tweeters (or component sets with tweeters) that are a direct fit to our stock location? I know the stock location isn't ideal, but messing with the a pillars seems like another pain in the rear... and I'm lazy

Thanks in advance!

You wouldn't want to use a speaker with a lower load than 4ohm as it would just make the system not play as loud. 99.99% of all aftermarket speakers for the car are 4 ohm.

In the Fiesta ST, the crossover for the tweeter is at the woofer, its a cap. There are only 2 pairs of wires needed to grab to feed a High level input amp or fix82.
You can grab the wires at each door if you don't want to pull it from behind the radio.
You don't need the dsp if you are just adding a sub. You can tie into the wires from the rear speakers and feed an amp to get signal for the sub. The dsp is needed if you have any interest in the system sounding good after replacing the factory speakers. Anyone who tells you it sounds good without retuning doesn't know what sounds good. Mean but a fact. How can I say that? The system was tuned for the speakers at their factory locations, time alignment and crossover wise, and EQ'd based on the factory speakers. When you replace those speakers especially if moving the tweeter, and you don't retune it, all of the tuning in the factory system is for not.

The factory midrange was designed to be an off-axis driver, if you replace it with an aftermarket off-axis driver and put a tweeter back in the factory location, it would not be perfect but it would better than an on-axis driver and the tweeter mounted somewhere other than factory location.

Most people have never been exposed to high end car audio, so they don't know any better. They replace the factory speakers add an amp and think the world has changed. And it has, but not to the extent they think. It's louder, that's it unless they installed a metal dome tweeter and then its brighter. Neither of which equates to better sounding audio. Imagine Its like driving a model T for the first time and you think wow your first car ride and you didn't know there was anything else out there that was different or better. Then someone pulls up in a Ferrari and you take that for a ride. That's the difference between replacing your speakers and replacing your speakers and properly tuning it. Its the same thing as adding a sub to a factory system. You think it sounds better because you now have bass. You had bass before you did the install but you couldn't hear it because the system could not properly reproduce it with the factory system. Now those frequencies are being played louder so now you hear them, but now the system is doing something it wasn't tuned to do, so the rest of the system is out of tune with the sub. Doing an aftermarket system is all about balance. Its no different than when you add power to a car.

You can't just add a bigger turbo without retuning the engine computer can you? NO, and you cant just add an amp, speakers, and sub without tuning it either.

 

[bgrazman]

My shop got Focal Flax 2-ways to fit into the stock positions (in front, I didn't want rear speakers). To get those speaker locations to throw an image in front of you (and for other reasons) I capture the output of the head unit--de-EQ it, put in some digital delay to move the image, then send it to the amp & to the speakers (2 ways up front & a sub in the back; all driven actively by a 5-way amp and not the crossovers in the speakers).

Seemed the best way to not lose the head unit & still get good sound.

 

[Fosters]

You wouldn't want to use a speaker with a lower load than 4ohm as it would just make the system not play as loud. 99.99% of all aftermarket speakers for the car are 4 ohm.

In the Fiesta ST, the crossover for the tweeter is at the woofer, its a cap. There are only 2 pairs of wires needed to grab to feed a High level input amp or fix82.
You can grab the wires at each door if you don't want to pull it from behind the radio.
You don't need the dsp if you are just adding a sub. You can tie into the wires from the rear speakers and feed an amp to get signal for the sub. The dsp is needed if you have any interest in the system sounding good after replacing the factory speakers. Anyone who tells you it sounds good without retuning doesn't know what sounds good. Mean but a fact. How can I say that? The system was tuned for the speakers at their factory locations, time alignment and crossover wise, and EQ'd based on the factory speakers. When you replace those speakers especially if moving the tweeter, and you don't retune it, all of the tuning in the factory system is for not.

The factory midrange was designed to be an off-axis driver, if you replace it with an aftermarket off-axis driver and put a tweeter back in the factory location, it would not be perfect but it would better than an on-axis driver and the tweeter mounted somewhere other than factory location.

Most people have never been exposed to high end car audio, so they don't know any better. They replace the factory speakers add an amp and think the world has changed. And it has, but not to the extent they think. It's louder, that's it unless they installed a metal dome tweeter and then its brighter. Neither of which equates to better sounding audio. Imagine Its like driving a model T for the first time and you think wow your first car ride and you didn't know there was anything else out there that was different or better. Then someone pulls up in a Ferrari and you take that for a ride. That's the difference between replacing your speakers and replacing your speakers and properly tuning it. Its the same thing as adding a sub to a factory system. You think it sounds better because you now have bass. You had bass before you did the install but you couldn't hear it because the system could not properly reproduce it with the factory system. Now those frequencies are being played louder so now you hear them, but now the system is doing something it wasn't tuned to do, so the rest of the system is out of tune with the sub. Doing an aftermarket system is all about balance. Its no different than when you add power to a car.

You can't just add a bigger turbo without retuning the engine computer can you? NO, and you cant just add an amp, speakers, and sub without tuning it either.

I know what you mean and I'm with you on the DSP. It's just not in the budget for now. I got the speakers and a temporary shallow mount sub lined up; and an older 6ch JL audio amp I'm gonna use. The amp can take the 2ohm speakers, so it should be fine. I will have to run one line out as channels 5 & 6 cannot take speaker level inputs if bridged for sub use (says so in the manual for it, kinda weird but it is what it is). Eventually I'll replace the pioneer shallow with either the 8w3 box from JL or the 12tw3 (haven't made up my mind which, I like the 12, but don't have the power for it). I will eventually add a dsp, but right now it would triple the cost of the system (I have about 200 bucks in speakers going in). I will keep the tweeters in the stock location if I can make them fit. That is such a stupid place of putting them... sigh. Makes me miss my wrangler with its tombstones in the dash... lol.

Also, since the shallow sub is only temporary (and I mean very temporary as I'm already gathering up stuff to do the truck stereo for which it's destined for), I think I'm gonna simply bedline the box instead of carpet it. Never done one in bedliner, so it will be a learning curve.

 

[antarctica24]

I know what you mean and I'm with you on the DSP. It's just not in the budget for now. I got the speakers and a temporary shallow mount sub lined up; and an older 6ch JL audio amp I'm gonna use. The amp can take the 2ohm speakers, so it should be fine. I will have to run one line out as channels 5 & 6 cannot take speaker level inputs if bridged for sub use (says so in the manual for it, kinda weird but it is what it is). Eventually I'll replace the pioneer shallow with either the 8w3 box from JL or the 12tw3 (haven't made up my mind which, I like the 12, but don't have the power for it). I will eventually add a dsp, but right now it would triple the cost of the system (I have about 200 bucks in speakers going in). I will keep the tweeters in the stock location if I can make them fit. That is such a stupid place of putting them... sigh. Makes me miss my wrangler with its tombstones in the dash... lol.

Also, since the shallow sub is only temporary (and I mean very temporary as I'm already gathering up stuff to do the truck stereo for which it's destined for), I think I'm gonna simply bedline the box instead of carpet it. Never done one in bedliner, so it will be a learning curve.

Its one of the most aggravating things about selling customers speakers. When I had my shop I was looking to find a company that could make me a basic processor for under $150.00 that I could sell with every set of speakers. Its unfortunate that the PPI piece is not going to be around long. Its a nice piece and does everything you want it to for under $200.00 on ebay. The processor today has become almost more important than the speakers, when It shouldn't be that way.

If nothing else by replacing the speakers and adding the sub sets you up for the processor down the road. Speakers really need to be broken in anyway.

 

[Fosters]

I started tearing into the car... I was gonna get the signal from behind the stereo, run it to the amp and then back to behind the stereo so that I make all of the connections in one spot, but after seeing how chintzy the factory speaker wires are (holy shit they're like 20ga!), i decided it's not worth it. I am gonna run 2 sets of wires to each speaker - one from the speaker connector to the amp and one back to the speaker. 2 hours later I have 1 door done... lol.

On the bad side I made my sub box for the temporary pioneer shallow mount 4.5" tall, with 0.5" mdf, so theres 4" mounting depth and thus the sub has about 5/8ths worth of room behind the vented magnet... with the height of the sub and the tilt of the spare tire, the floor doesn't fit over the box as I had hoped. I think the spare will have to go at this point.. Even when I will get the JL 8w3 or the 12tw3 box (whichever it'll end up being), it still won't fit right. I think about the only sub you can possibly fit in there is the 13tw5, and even that box will have to be really freaking thin...