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Be really careful running ethanol (E30, E40, etc.)
- Thread starter JPGC
- Start date
![[strongman]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_strongman.gif "Strongman [strongman]"){kind=icon}
Meh, my car out is already insane even just on pump gas, I throw the race gas concentrate in when I want to go ludicrous speed but it’s not something I need all the time and my tuner has already told me that an ethanol tune is not going to be as powerful as my race gas tune so considering the drop in mileage I’m not in a rush to do this if at all. But thanks!
Dont get me wrong it's a great option to have....you do notice the power gain right away. Dont let the mileage scare you away.
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Drove 220 miles to Pittsburgh over the weekend. 98% highway, was reading at 29 MPG the way up, by the time I pulled off the highway I was reading 30.1 MPG while averaging 74 MPH.
Same on the way back. I was going 90 MPH some of the way, and in traffic as low at 65-70 MPH. Pretty high speeds to get that high MPG I'd say.
Same on the way back. I was going 90 MPH some of the way, and in traffic as low at 65-70 MPH. Pretty high speeds to get that high MPG I'd say.
You can't run E85 on any of them. If you have a proper tune, you can run E30 which you get by blending E85 and premium fuel, which usually is E10. You can run E30 with any 2014 or newer ST as long as you buy and install an E30 tune. Actually you might be okay running E30 without a retune, but there would be little point.
What in the world?!?? I'm on oem turbo, FBO (minus DP) on 93, I get about 240mi/tank. On E30, I would estimate about 220mi/tank.
Do I drive economically.... no. But I could guarantee I treat my car pretty tame compared to most. I usually shift at 2500~ rpm. When the lanes are open, I do a mini pull to maybe 4500rpm. The car's insanely fast at those rpms when the street limits are 30. (I'm already going like like 50-60~). Maybe it's because I'm 95% in the city, that's why my mileage is terrible.
I always think the mileage question is useless without the context of having the info of avg speed. It's one of the gauges in the car if you toggle through. I think the last time I checked, I was averaging around 18~. It gives you a good perspective of whether people are mostly on highways, or just driving in smooth conditions (avg speed will be higher) or if you're stuck in stop and go a lot (low avg speed, like me).
[MENTION=3995]jeff[/MENTION], I'm still on the oem turbo so I don't know how much I can compare with you. But I'll share my experience anyway. In my honest opinion, I don't know if it's worth it for me. Like wise, I don't live close to an ethanol station. I can buy it by filling up jerry cans by this supplier that's about 15 miles away, but completely out of my way as I never actually head in that direction, ever. Then I have to look stupid trying to fill up at a gas station later on and then filling up 93, etc. It doesn't help that we need to use that stupid funnel piece that comes with our cars when we use jerry cans. I'm still quite new at this procedure, so it takes me about 20 mins to fill up from beginning to end, including filling up the 93 afterward. I know that sounds like a ridiculous amount of time, but mostly cause I have to do it slowly so I don't accidentally spill the ethanol everywhere. And the ethanol does pour out relatively slow from the jerry cans. And if you end up spilling some all over the side of the car, well darn... that's extra time to clean up. I'm sure with more experience, i'll be able to do it faster, but regardless, it's more work than simply pumping in 93.
I'm currently experimenting with Ethanol. I have the 93/E30 tune from Stratified, and last month, I've filled up enough ethanol to make 4 full fillups (after I mix it with 93). I am just about to finish my 4th tank of E30. I made my initial fill up on May 12th. So 4 full tanks lasted me about 6 weeks. (On avg, 4 tanks on 93 would last me about 7-8 weeks). So there does seem to be quite a difference in mileage.
Now the second part I will get at, which I've also mentioned in the past when I tried 2 tanks of ethanol last fall, is that for whatever reason, I'm not feeling the magical gains that everyone is talking about. Maybe it's because I'm on OEM turbo so my difference between 93 and E30 is not going to be as drastic? Maybe because I drive in the city and I'm mostly boosting in mid range and not holding the rpms up to the top end? Maybe I am getting more power but it's negligible.... or my butt is numb so I can't even feel it on buttdyno? Anyhow, I'm consistently hitting 26.5~psi on full boost on E30. Since I'm just about done with my supply of E30, I'm going to go back to 94 and see if I feel a significant difference of power loss (based on my driving habits). I figured after 6 weeks of E30, I should be used to it and if I suddenly go back to 93, I SHOULD feel pretty disappointed if this magical E30 was working to begin with, right??
But I will say this too though... if you have the money to play, it sometime doesn't hurt to just try. I did think E30 was kind of a hassle, and I still do in all honesty. I don't track, autoX, heck, I don't even roll race in "Mexico". So E30 is really solely just to pump my own ego of making my car faster with no practical purpose. But even in hindsight, I won't regret, cause it wasn't all that much money relatively to get the E30 tune and I got to experience it and not wonder about it.
(I'm still very much on the fence of a hybrid turbo, and I'm wondering, but that costs a heck lot more than an E30 tune... lol. I don't have that kind of play money. Maybe one day...)
It's the stop and go city driving dawg that's really killing you....I've gotten crusing around town similar milage...side roads 30-45 mph I get around 26 also....but highway 60-70mph I get 32-34mpgs and if I stay out of boost I've gotten as high as 39.5 Mpg. I definitely notice the Difference of 93 to e30 tune...I get usually 3 gals of e85 the usually 7.5 -8 gals. Of 93 Oct. Immediately difference is felt when I get into it. Maybe it's the quality of ethanol you're getting.
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Hey wow thanks for the very thoughtful post!
My average speed after 2.5 years of ownership is 31mph. So yes you're doing a lot more city driving than me, hence my better mpg.
I bet you're not noticing the difference because you don't get much chance to use it. Also the ECU is gonna give you less when you try to stretch the car out because it's used to all that stop and go.
Your comments about the hassle are really helpful and sobering for me. I'm in a very similar situation - it's a 19 mile drive in a direction I never go to get the ethanol gas. I'd be filling up 5 gallon tanks and mixing myself so I didn't have to drive there all the time. Time wasted at the pump....spilling....the plastic spout....all these things have entered my mind. Reading your post here has convinced me to axe this idea. My tuner also told me my car won't make the power on ethanol that it's making on the RG additive I use to up the octane. So I'll be disappointed in the end, plus the hassle, plus the loss in mpg which is important to me. Man just thinking of having that tank in my car, the smell, worrying about it sloshing and spilling, all that every 10 days or so....no thanks.
So thanks - this is a realistic perspective that's been very helpful and saved me some stress. If an ethanol station ever opens up near me/where I drive, I'll get the tune, but until then I'm gonna forego this idea.
My average speed after 2.5 years of ownership is 31mph. So yes you're doing a lot more city driving than me, hence my better mpg.
I bet you're not noticing the difference because you don't get much chance to use it. Also the ECU is gonna give you less when you try to stretch the car out because it's used to all that stop and go.
Your comments about the hassle are really helpful and sobering for me. I'm in a very similar situation - it's a 19 mile drive in a direction I never go to get the ethanol gas. I'd be filling up 5 gallon tanks and mixing myself so I didn't have to drive there all the time. Time wasted at the pump....spilling....the plastic spout....all these things have entered my mind. Reading your post here has convinced me to axe this idea. My tuner also told me my car won't make the power on ethanol that it's making on the RG additive I use to up the octane. So I'll be disappointed in the end, plus the hassle, plus the loss in mpg which is important to me. Man just thinking of having that tank in my car, the smell, worrying about it sloshing and spilling, all that every 10 days or so....no thanks.
So thanks - this is a realistic perspective that's been very helpful and saved me some stress. If an ethanol station ever opens up near me/where I drive, I'll get the tune, but until then I'm gonna forego this idea.
I personally don't have a tester, but since we only have one source, a lot of locals are checking the content like a hawk and they all say the supply is accurate to the dot. I'm mixing in 3.5 Gal/tank. Where are you guys noticing the most power gains? low range? mid range? top end? etc.
I did a datalog on 93 and ran it in vdyno the night before I put in E30. I did another datalog with E30 the very next night in similar weather conditions and ran it in vdyno. I know this isn't a controlled test by any means, but FWIW, I saw an increase of 3whp and 11wtq. LOL.
I'm honestly more concerned about the before-and-after gains than the actual specific numbers. But my latest E30 datalog in vdyno has me around 210/265. Stratified has mentioned there's not too much more I can go from here with the oem turbo.
You mean the ECU will hold back when I WOT due to it being programmed to my usual stop-and-go commute?
I did a datalog on 93 and ran it in vdyno the night before I put in E30. I did another datalog with E30 the very next night in similar weather conditions and ran it in vdyno. I know this isn't a controlled test by any means, but FWIW, I saw an increase of 3whp and 11wtq. LOL.
I'm honestly more concerned about the before-and-after gains than the actual specific numbers. But my latest E30 datalog in vdyno has me around 210/265. Stratified has mentioned there's not too much more I can go from here with the oem turbo.
You mean the ECU will hold back when I WOT due to it being programmed to my usual stop-and-go commute?
What I meant was, and others with bigger brains can chime in and help explain possibly, the ECU learns and adapts to your driving style. So if you're constantly going part throttle, never exercising the higher end of your power band, stop and go driving, etc., the ECU adapts to this in an effort to strategize best economy for your situation. It all has to do with KAM (keep alive memory) which can be reset on your Accessport in about 12 seconds. I learned way back in my Subaru days that resetting the KAM (there are a few different ways to do this) brings "free horsepower". Do some research you'll find a good bit on it. Here's a quick quote on the basics:
Resetting the KAM returns the powertrain control module (PCM) memory to its default setting. Adaptive learning contents such as idle speed, refueling event, and fuel trim are included. After the KAM has been reset, the vehicle may exhibit certain driveability concerns. It is necessary to drive the vehicle to allow the PCM to learn the values for optimum driveability and performance. The ECU "learns" about your engine as you drive the car. The "learning" is actually a process that the ECU uses to track the tolerance changes of the sensors and actuators on the engine. The ECU stores these "learned" values in battery backed-up RAM so that it doesn't have to start from scratch the next time you turn your engine over.
Another quote from OBD2 codes website:
"The keep alive memory is the memory that is stored in the powertrain control module (PCM) in regards to drive cycles. This memory is ever changing based on driving inputs and sensor inputs. When you disconnect your battery this memory is erased and the computer goes into "dumb" mode as it is using the built in parameters to run the engine and not the learned values based on driving inputs and habits as well as what the engine sensors see."
In contrast, if you're driving it aggressively often and allowing it to go WOT from low rpms to redline, it will perform better because the ECU adjusts fuel trim and etc. for that situation. Either way resetting the KAM starts it back at default and in your case if your car is used to stop and go then yes I do feel it will make it perform better.
Again I'm not an expert but poke around and you'll find a good bit of helpful info on this topic, here's one thread on the topic, context is adding mods but the same applies to daily driving habits....just read about all these FoST guys who reset KAM and suddenly the tires spun when the didn't before due to lazy driving and the above explanations:
http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-...tored-please-read-if-you-having-issues-3.html
In my case, and I don't think it's placebo, when I use hypermiling techniques for a few days and then hammer it it feels weaker than usual. After some aggressive driving it's happy again, throttle input is better, etc. So either reset your KAM regularly or drive like a banshee for a while and it'll feel faster because it is due to the above explanations.
Resetting the KAM returns the powertrain control module (PCM) memory to its default setting. Adaptive learning contents such as idle speed, refueling event, and fuel trim are included. After the KAM has been reset, the vehicle may exhibit certain driveability concerns. It is necessary to drive the vehicle to allow the PCM to learn the values for optimum driveability and performance. The ECU "learns" about your engine as you drive the car. The "learning" is actually a process that the ECU uses to track the tolerance changes of the sensors and actuators on the engine. The ECU stores these "learned" values in battery backed-up RAM so that it doesn't have to start from scratch the next time you turn your engine over.
Another quote from OBD2 codes website:
"The keep alive memory is the memory that is stored in the powertrain control module (PCM) in regards to drive cycles. This memory is ever changing based on driving inputs and sensor inputs. When you disconnect your battery this memory is erased and the computer goes into "dumb" mode as it is using the built in parameters to run the engine and not the learned values based on driving inputs and habits as well as what the engine sensors see."
In contrast, if you're driving it aggressively often and allowing it to go WOT from low rpms to redline, it will perform better because the ECU adjusts fuel trim and etc. for that situation. Either way resetting the KAM starts it back at default and in your case if your car is used to stop and go then yes I do feel it will make it perform better.
Again I'm not an expert but poke around and you'll find a good bit of helpful info on this topic, here's one thread on the topic, context is adding mods but the same applies to daily driving habits....just read about all these FoST guys who reset KAM and suddenly the tires spun when the didn't before due to lazy driving and the above explanations:
http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-...tored-please-read-if-you-having-issues-3.html
In my case, and I don't think it's placebo, when I use hypermiling techniques for a few days and then hammer it it feels weaker than usual. After some aggressive driving it's happy again, throttle input is better, etc. So either reset your KAM regularly or drive like a banshee for a while and it'll feel faster because it is due to the above explanations.
My vDyno is at 223whp and 300wtq. Stg2 on E30. I normally wait till I'm at a quarter tank then I put in about 4 gallons of E85 and then top off the rest in 93.
I feel the biggest difference in the mid-range around 3000 to 4000 RPM. 6th gear on the highway around 80 mph pulls hard. You never have to downshift.
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I feel the biggest difference in the mid-range around 3000 to 4000 RPM. 6th gear on the highway around 80 mph pulls hard. You never have to downshift.
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A lot of a cars don't pull hard in 6th. Most all have to downshift except for maybe Mustang GT's, Corvettes and Camaro SS's. That's awesome having all that torque on tap for a small engine. Way to go!!! ![[drinking]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_drinking.gif "Drinking Pals [drinking]")
Yeah, I just don't buy that... with modern ECU's and the timing tricks they have and safety factors involved, LSPI isn't a problem unless you are bogging at 1300 RPM, floor it and keep it floored.... car makers would go bankrupt from warranty claims otherwise... if you are at 2500 and floor it, the car is already in peak torque area and can pull cleanly... if anything take, just take like 3 full seconds to ease into WOT and you're fine.... just my $.02 on that.. but also, when you are going 60 already, even with a 93 tune there is power on tap just going 1/3 throttle, it's there instantly, is the point above. 
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