alternative stage 1 maps?

[BoostBumps]

There are only 2 reasons the stock IC can be seen as unsuited for stage 2. The higher temps and the higher temp swing. If charge temps stay in check because its cold out or you dont place constant load on the system then its a non issue. If its the 30 degree charge air temp swing compaired to 8 on an upgraded unit then how is 2o degrees of temp swing a huge concern as to how it effects the rest of the system. I can see the swing being more the concern than thenoverall temp perhaps

After all this discussion if you still bent on moving to a stg2 from a stg 1 without installing a more efficient IC I would highly recommend monitoring and keep a close eye on 1-4 ign timing correction and charge temps...Although COBB compensations make it such that it will pull timing anyways to prevent the user from damaging their engine due to preignition conditions which could still easily occur during very high charge temps...

good luck!

 

[dyn085]

There are only 2 reasons the stock IC can be seen as unsuited for stage 2. The higher temps and the higher temp swing. If charge temps stay in check because its cold out or you dont place constant load on the system then its a non issue. If its the 30 degree charge air temp swing compaired to 8 on an upgraded unit then how is 2o degrees of temp swing a huge concern as to how it effects the rest of the system. I can see the swing being more the concern than thenoverall temp perhaps

I don't think you get it. Look at what has been posted-a twenty degree delta is the equivalent of 2.5 degrees being pulled, roughly. On top of that, now add the two additional degrees of timing that is added above 1.3 load, 4k rpm. That's a total of 4.5 degrees of timing difference occurring at your max-power limit...it's kind of substantial. You seem to think it's only timing-related, so that should be enough information for you to realize that it's a bad decision. But again, timing is not the only change.

You can claim having previous tuning experience, but every post you make is taking you further from that claim. You need to look at the bigger picture.

Can someone post the Optimum Power timing tables of the stage 1 and stage 2?

 

[BoostBumps]

Can someone post the Optimum Power timing tables of the stage 1 and stage 2?

Borderline Base Timing Tables /Optimal Power (without compensations applied)

Stage 1 OTS:



Stage 2 OTS:



Stage 3 OTS:




Borderline Timing (Optimum Power)

This set of timing tables represent the maximum timing to remain on the border of the knock threshold. These values are the result of extensive modeling and testing on an engine dyno using standard pump 91 octane fuel (95 RON). Often times, these values are conservative and can be adjusted in both low and high load conditions. These tables will be averaged together and used during medium to high load. There are also compensations that are applied to this timing method. Depending on the the total of these compensations along with the base from this set of tables, ignition timing may be limited by one of the two ceilings. See the Cylinder Pressure Timing Limit (Ceiling) and Preignition Timing Limit (Ceiling) to determine how close your current settings are.

Tuning Tips - See additional information at HDFX Mapped Points (Intake) and (Exhaust). For now, it is best practice to leave the upper portion (low load) of the tables near factory settings and copy the lower portion (higher load) values to match on all 16 tables. See one of our OTS maps for an example of this method. Use the HDFX Weight data monitors to view which timing tables are in use at any given time. Use the Spark Source data monitor to see if this series of tables is active. If active Spark Source will show a value of 2.

 

[dyn085]

Sweet, thanks!

For simpler math, we're just going to assume the car is at 2 load the entire rpm range from 2k rpm on up. 100 degree day, 30 degree CAT increase for the OEM FMIC and 10 degrees for aftermarket. Again, just for math for this discussion.

The OEM FMIC, stage 1 starts at -16.7 degrees timing and accelerates through to 6250 rpm. At 6250 rpm there is a 30 degree delta increase, so we're going to subtract 3.75 degrees (-62.5 * .06) from the -1 degrees of base timing to arrive at -4.75. This is timing at full-rpm, full temp. For discussion, this is your max safe timing due to your mechanical setup.

The aftermarket FMIC, stage 2 is going to start at the same -16.7 degrees of timing, but at full song we're only removing 1.5 degrees (-25 * .06) from the 1 degree base timing to arrive at -.5 degrees. This is timing at full-rpm, full temp. By comparison, this would be the OEM FMIC stage 1 on roughly a 80 degree charge temp (read-starting the pull on a 50 degree day)...

Now we're on the stage 2 tune with OEM FMIC. At 6250 rpm we see total timing to be -2.75 degrees (1 + (-3.75) from above). Assuming your car needed to pull the additional 2 degrees for max safe timing, this is the equivalent of seeing nearly 150 degree CAT's...and that also assumes that you didn't see a larger delta due to the increased boost during the rpm sweep and increased timing from above 4k rpm.

Now let's assume you're seeing the typical KS advances on stage 1 with your OEM FMIC. You'll probably max out at four and stay there, though some don't get that far and hit the knock threshold enough to have timing removed before seeing it climb again. This means that as your timing increases due to the stage 2 tune, you're going to hit the knock threshold faster and more often. Definitely not dangerous once, but you're going to hit it multiple times every time you go WOT. Just like everyone has been saying, you're sacrificing safety/longevity.

Your engine doesn't care what temperature it is outside, only what temperature it is using for combustion. This is very over-simplified for discussion and omits a lot of other variables, and maybe my math is even wrong (though it should be close enough for discussion). Either way, you wanted math so here it is and now available for peer review.

 

[MegaBuster]

Dyn085 thanks for posting some data
Thats all im looking for but i have to keep pushing for it or all i get is people saying im a moron. I do not know the ins and outs of these new age systems. I have tuned on more simple standalones such as hydra ems where you have far less inputs and much more strait forward tables. Very tired and out of it today but i will read up on this and get back to you

 

[BoostBumps]

Dyn085 thanks for posting some data
Thats all im looking for but i have to keep pushing for it or all i get is people saying im a moron. I do not know the ins and outs of these new age systems. I have tuned on more simple standalones such as hydra ems where you have far less inputs and much more strait forward tables. Very tired and out of it today but i will read up on this and get back to you

No problem...And your very welcome!

You'll find (as many of us who are currently self-tuning) that Ford's tuning strategy is extremely dynamic and if your at all familiar / experienced with tuning then I would highly recommend purchasing COBB's ATR...This will also allow you to review all the differences and changes that COBB makes between each of their stages to gain a better understanding...

 

[dyn085]

Dyn085 thanks for posting some data
Thats all im looking for but i have to keep pushing for it or all i get is people saying im a moron. I do not know the ins and outs of these new age systems. I have tuned on more simple standalones such as hydra ems where you have far less inputs and much more strait forward tables. Very tired and out of it today but i will read up on this and get back to you

My explanation is not exactly data, but it's an example that I couldn't provide to begin with because I don't have ATR for my FiST yet. Besides, imagine having to outline that entire discussion every time someone new came up with the exact same idea-you definitely aren't the first and surely won't be the last. Everyone thinks they have a way to skirt the system, but there's a reason the upgrade path is what it is.

With that being said, the current upgrade path is what it is based on the collective datalogging of members over time. The path started with the typical intake and CBE inclusions that were later found to not be necessary. What is necessary is the FMIC for stage 2 and DP for stage 3. On the stock turbo that's all you really need for near-maximum benefit.

The new Ford strategies are significantly more complicated than previous tuning programs, and I can say that with zero previous tuning experience because every professional tuner I know has said the same thing. The added benefit is that there's additional control, and they all pretty much love it. Either way, at some point in time you have to realize that those of us whom are more experienced with the platform are giving you advice because we're trying to help you-not because we are trying to force you to spend money.

 

[BoostBumps]

So would it be worth buying dhm intercooler and hot side pipe kit for a cheaper price than cobbs? I mean I was planing on spending 580 anyway just on cobbs intercooler alone.

We're going a bit off topic here Kip...might want to ask these questions on this thread...

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/2378-Fiesta-ST-Intercooler-Chargepipe-upgrade-worth-it

Edit: Last 6 posts regarding questions about IC hard pipes moved to thread above

 

[MegaBuster]

thanks. I put myself on the group buy list for the deadhook unit. I sold my other car yesterday for 7,700 so I can divert that much towards the Fiseta without getting into trouble with the boss.

I come from a tuning background that you dial in AFR then tune against the knock wall with your desired fuel quality. If its not knocking or getting too hot then whats the problem right? I understand that Fords ECU is light years ahead of what I have seen and used and while I am still going to do some logging to convince myself I apriciate you explaining the differances. I still do think that if your operating the car in 40-50 degree temps that you could probably get away with it on the street but the reality is I live in the high desert and right now its 70-80 in the morning

 

[BoostBumps]

I live in the high desert and right now its 70-80 in the morning

We're currently entering the hell months here in the low desert...Heat came early this year with daytime highs this past week in 115's (this is slightly above normal) and by 11pm its still 100F...And early morning at 5am its already in the 80's...Looking forward to end of Sept already...LOL

 

[MegaBuster]

Well i purchased a deadhook intercooler today. The one drive on stage 2 was enough to convince me that its well worth the money. It is a really good improvment for sure amd will feel even better im sure with the lower charge temps. The end tanks look like they will distrbute flow very well into the core as long as the entry dose not cause too much turbulence. I will feel more confident in taking the car to the track as well