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"epa-declares-war-against-makers-of-emissions-defeat-devices"

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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #21
The thing I get from the article is tuners will be targeted along with any other emission altering devices, and for all the posts about new regs there are no new regs. Just enforcing existing ones. So I think many FiST tuners will be forced to stop selling tunes that do not meet emissions and servicing current tunes. Turbo changes will be out. They said enforcement actions will not be on end users but on the providers so selling them will bring fed charges. We currently have engines that are clean and will eat the 60's & 70's "muscle cars" lunch. Clean power can be made, just not cheaply!
 


green_henry

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#22
When I did my 'inspection' for an illegal modification they were very thorough under the hood and even checked to make sure it was turbocharged from the factory. I'm sure a hybrid 'could' pass, but the new silicone hoses would definitely draw attention to the unit....
This is why I have been sticking with black hoses since modding my FiST. They're clearly aftermarket, but they don't scream MODDED like bright colors do.
 


gtx3076

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#23
More regulation is never good.
Their reach is pretty far too, i know someone who received a letter over a tuner he bought 7 years ago asking for proof that the tune had been removed or face a full-on inspection the next time his registration was up. I do believe the vehicle was sold last year so he didnt have to deal with that.
Regulation is wonderful, cars have gotten better because of it. I'm glad leaded fuel is rare, and asbestos has far more limited use. Air quality in urban and surburban areas would be terrible if everybody drove cars with no emission systems.
 


Ford ST

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#24
I really don't think anybody has anything to worry about. This is from people deleting the systems on diesel trucks. I have been reading articles like this for several years now.
I'm all for clean air but we are not the big problem. Ships by far pollute more than anything. I don't agree with what Volkswagen did but it was massively overblown. All of those diesel cars combined would not do the damage of one cruise ship.





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#25
I really don't think anybody has anything to worry about. This is from people deleting the systems on diesel trucks. I have been reading articles like this for several years now.
I'm all for clean air but we are not the big problem. Ships by far pollute more than anything. I don't agree with what Volkswagen did but it was massively overblown. All of those diesel cars combined would not do the damage of one cruise ship.
I kinda disagree with you on that one. No ships roam in any jam packed city. If you want cleaner air and no smog in urban areas, you need to get stricter rules as the number of cars per square miles continue to increase.

The other thing about ships if I remember correctly is they don't release the same pollutants than cars, thus cannot be fairly compared to them. Oranges to apples.
 


Ford ST

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#26
Ships produce some of the nastiest emissions they burn the dirtiest fuel possible because it's cheap. They also hang out on the edges of very populated areas. California well the entire West coast and East coast are loaded with ship harbors with ships that sit there all day everyday with idling engines.
When I think about pollution I think about the entire atmosphere. Pollution doesn't just drift off into space it travels across the globe.

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#27
My problem with regulations is what they prohibit. They all say you can't add this, can't do that. What they should do, is just set limits on what can come out the exhaust. I have run many blown big block vehicles that have to be in perfect running order to keep from self destructing. I had one that breezed thru emission testing but failed visual inspection due to using an electronic distributor, not the giant blower sitting on top. They required a points type, because thats what came on the truck. It barely would run with points, but passed with clouds of unburnt fuel out the back. Why can't they see that high performance engines require the correct air/fuel and that leads to nothing left to go out the exhaust.
 


Dpro

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#28
I kinda disagree with you on that one. No ships roam in any jam packed city. If you want cleaner air and no smog in urban areas, you need to get stricter rules as the number of cars per square miles continue to increase.

The other thing about ships if I remember correctly is they don't release the same pollutants than cars, thus cannot be fairly compared to them. Oranges to apples.
You obviously have never seen the port of LA lol. Stop focusing on cars that is the same mistake CARB made in California. Our cars are no longer the problem the problem is diesel particulates and its bad. We have many ships just sitting at anchor idling away every single day. Plus the amount of Semi’s at the port moving goods out to the outlying area and yes rail uses diesel as well.
 


jeffreylyon

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#29
You obviously have never seen the port of LA lol. Stop focusing on cars that is the same mistake CARB made in California. Our cars are no longer the problem the problem is diesel particulates and its bad. We have many ships just sitting at anchor idling away every single day. Plus the amount of Semi’s at the port moving goods out to the outlying area and yes rail uses diesel as well.
Absolutely agree - the problem is industry and shipping far more than individual transportation; lobbyists have done a great job in drawing attention away from industry. That doesn't mean that the current regulations shouldn't be enforced but we should be looking at the more damaging problems as well. There's a lot more money drawing the attention of our law makers away from the high-sulfur fuels used in shipping than from the catless DPs in some of our cars. That doesn't mean that we should be running catless DPs in our cars.
 


jeff

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#30
In the past I've done complete cat deletes and yes on certain platforms you can absolutely feel the performance difference. At some point I got over it and went the high flow cat option due to that horrible smell. Never really cared about what it did to people much nor the environment. Then seven years ago my little brother, a healthy non-smoker who was also a runner, was diagnosed with lung cancer. Since then I've been to nearly every oncology and chemo appointment, and sadly, he's about at the end. A thousand idiots like me along with a thousand other ways we're killing ourselves contributed to that. I'm totally guilty and have no excuse at all. I do feel differently about emissions now though, and gladly support whatever legislation ends up being passed, but it's for selfish reasons. Sad that it took that sort of personal impact to make me see the light.
 


jeffreylyon

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#31
Here's the meat. In short, (3A) don't take off or defeat any emissions-related device on your or your customer's car and (3B) don't sell anything that removes or defeats any emissions-related device on anyone's car. Pretty benign, IMO.

"(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or

(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use; or"
 


M-Sport fan

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#32
This is why I have been sticking with black hoses since modding my FiST. They're clearly aftermarket, but they don't scream MODDED like bright colors do.
Also WHY, regardless of which turbo I eventually go with (or not), I will stick to factory appearing intakes/intake pipes as well. [wink]
 


Mikey456

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#33
I support reasonable emission laws. Especially the ones requiring you to keep the cat on. I used to remove them too. I grew up, have children now and I don’t want them breathing in that crap. My father still has some classic cars, but I don’t my kids around when he fires them up. I like the resto-mod scene where they put new motors in classic bodies. I think that’s the right way to do it.


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M-Sport fan

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#34
Here's the meat. In short, (3A) don't take off or defeat any emissions-related device on your or your customer's car and (3B) don't sell anything that removes or defeats any emissions-related device on anyone's car. Pretty benign, IMO.

"(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or

(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use; or"
An aggressive pop and crackle tune (even on an otherwise factory stock engine/turbo) could possibly fall under the umbrella of that (3A) rule above, since it will eventually kill/render ineffective a factory catcon. [:(]
 


Ford ST

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#35
I support reasonable emission laws. Especially the ones requiring you to keep the cat on. I used to remove them too. I grew up, have children now and I don’t want them breathing in that crap. My father still has some classic cars, but I don’t my kids around when he fires them up. I like the resto-mod scene where they put new motors in classic bodies. I think that’s the right way to do it.


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Now that's a little too much but they're your kids. Enjoying a old-school muscle car engine is not going to hurt anybody.
So I take it you definitely would not take your kids to a monster truck show, or any type of racing event.

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#36
All I'm saying is it all starts somewhere....Then it just grows and grows. Just wait until the electric phase comes and people start giving you grief about driving gas.
Yeah can you believe you need a license to drive?? /s

Personally I’m optimistic about electrification. Right now it’s scary because it’s still niche. Once it hits scale and starts selling to the masses, there are going to be some amazing performance cars out there. I mean the first manufacturer that can produce an electric performance car around or under the 3000 lb mark is going to have an awesome car.


As far as regulation goes, there’s a happy medium here. Fact is if you wanna drive your car catless and unregulated, you can; on private property. No sense in arguing that they shouldn’t regulate the roads, they’re bad enough as is, I can’t imagine this is actually gonna bother anyone who’s not being obnoxious with their vehicle on public roads.


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#37
Actually to someone not familiar with the intricacies of Gas Flow the stock cat CAN look like a bottleneck. Because there is a necked down area within the cat and IMO that is there for a reason.

Placed properly a transition such as this can create a vaccum upstream of the transition. It's why you see a rather large expansion chamber on the exhaust of a 2 cycle engine. It's also why you will see a large diameter collector at the end to a bundle of tubes on a device called an Exhaust Header. It's all about positioning a low pressure standing wave at the critical point where the exhaust exits the cylinder or turbocharger.

Now concerning the EPA and it's enforcing the Law. This doesn't mean the end of the world of Tuning or Mods. However it does mean that those doing this work will have to pay attention to DETAILS. No more skating by just looking at the HP output, the Emissions will have to be measured and brought within compliance with the EPA regs. It may also mean that things will get more expensive but emissions testing gear isn't horrendously expensive, fact is that it's cheap enough a mid sized auto service center can afford it.

So, how should the Tuning Industry approach this issue. BTW, this doesn't just effect Tuners, it also effects the corner car service center. What they need to do is use SEMA to negotiate an Emissions Compliance Procedure that is affordable for a smaller business or service center. Because only a Ford Motor company can afford the current compliance testing procedures that are meant to insure that every single vehicle manufactured will always be compliant. The biggies do this so they don't have to test every vehicle produced, what they are doing is insuring that the Manufacturing Method will always produce compliant vehicles. What the small guy needs is an assurance from the EPA that they will accept individual vehicles being tested for compliance and a certification to that for that particular vehicle. Keep in mind, if the EPA refuses to accept this approach they will be effectively be promoting a Monopoly and that will not hold up to a Supreme Court scrutiny.
 


Mikey456

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#38
Now that's a little too much but they're your kids. Enjoying a old-school muscle car engine is not going to hurt anybody.
So I take it you definitely would not take your kids to a monster truck show, or any type of racing event.

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Yes.... you have a point. And no I probably won’t be they taking them to a monster truck event. I do however take them to car shows, but I try not to get stuck behind a line of muscle cars leaving the event. But that’s just me. To each there own.


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#39
Actually to someone not familiar with the intricacies of Gas Flow the stock cat CAN look like a bottleneck. Because there is a necked down area within the cat and IMO that is there for a reason.

Placed properly a transition such as this can create a vaccum upstream of the transition. It's why you see a rather large expansion chamber on the exhaust of a 2 cycle engine. It's also why you will see a large diameter collector at the end to a bundle of tubes on a device called an Exhaust Header. It's all about positioning a low pressure standing wave at the critical point where the exhaust exits the cylinder or turbocharger.

Now concerning the EPA and it's enforcing the Law. This doesn't mean the end of the world of Tuning or Mods. However it does mean that those doing this work will have to pay attention to DETAILS. No more skating by just looking at the HP output, the Emissions will have to be measured and brought within compliance with the EPA regs. It may also mean that things will get more expensive but emissions testing gear isn't horrendously expensive, fact is that it's cheap enough a mid sized auto service center can afford it.

So, how should the Tuning Industry approach this issue. BTW, this doesn't just effect Tuners, it also effects the corner car service center. What they need to do is use SEMA to negotiate an Emissions Compliance Procedure that is affordable for a smaller business or service center. Because only a Ford Motor company can afford the current compliance testing procedures that are meant to insure that every single vehicle manufactured will always be compliant. The biggies do this so they don't have to test every vehicle produced, what they are doing is insuring that the Manufacturing Method will always produce compliant vehicles. What the small guy needs is an assurance from the EPA that they will accept individual vehicles being tested for compliance and a certification to that for that particular vehicle. Keep in mind, if the EPA refuses to accept this approach they will be effectively be promoting a Monopoly and that will not hold up to a Supreme Court scrutiny.
That's very well said.
That's actually my concern with electric cars, It's going to create a monopoly. No one's going to be able to work on them, because they're going to be software locked out.
Of course some people believe they have no maintenance that may be partially true. They still have tires, ball joints, tie rods, rack and pinions etc. With all the torque they make they're going to be devouring some tires with a heavy foot.

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#40
That's very well said.
That's actually my concern with electric cars, It's going to create a monopoly. No one's going to be able to work on them, because they're going to be software locked out.
Of course some people believe they have no maintenance that may be partially true. They still have tires, ball joints, tie rods, rack and pinions etc. With all the torque they make they're going to be devouring some tires with a heavy foot.

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We’re locked out of our car’s software now. Aftermarket companies provide some additional access but generally speaking very little about serviceability should change. Maintenance should be more straightforward, less fluids, less wear components since electric motors are vastly more simplified compared to a gasoline engine.


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