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"epa-declares-war-against-makers-of-emissions-defeat-devices"

jeffreylyon

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#3
This is in no way a good thing....in any shape or form for everyone in the Tuner realm.
I disagree. This isn't new regulation but, rather, enforcement of existing regulation, specifically the use of "defeats." If that results in aftermarket vendors shying away from selling tunes that let people roll coal to look cool (?) or buy catless downpipes to save money over a catted version then I'm all for it. The alternative is new, stricter, more invasive regulation. In short, if I can keep my turbo upgrade but have to run a cat behind it, I'm good, especially if the alternative (and there *will* be an alternative) is that I can't modify my car with any uncertified aftermarket part, a la California.
 


TyphoonFiST

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#4
Even the high flow cats can set codes for flowing too much some times. I read something about this article in the past..... It all starts somewhere.....they have their fingers in the Pie...NOW its just a matter of time before they wont let you touch your own vehicle period.
 


jeffreylyon

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#5
Even the high flow cats can set codes for flowing too much some times. I read something about this article in the past..... It all starts somewhere.....they have their fingers in the Pie...NOW its just a matter of time before they wont let you touch your own vehicle period.
They aren't cracking down on otherwise compliment mods, like catted DPs, they're cracking down on flagrant defeats. This isn't anything new.
 


TyphoonFiST

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#6
Jeffery....The high flow Cat is defeating the OEM style system and could be considered trickery. Big brother would find some way to put it into that realm ands make it illegal. Just remember...when THE EPA is given an inch they will take a foot.
 


CarGuy

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#7
Jeffery....The high flow Cat is defeating the OEM style system and could be considered trickery. Big brother would find some way to put it into that realm ands make it illegal. Just remember...when THE EPA is given an inch they will take a foot.
Catless is so much worse though...and pointless. 99.9% of the people will never ever need or miss the extra few ponies on the street. There is ZERO logic in that.

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jeffreylyon

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#8
Jeffery....The high flow Cat is defeating the OEM style system and could be considered trickery. Big brother would find some way to put it into that realm ands make it illegal. Just remember...when THE EPA is given an inch they will take a foot.
The Clean Air Act of of 1963 is the inch that the EPA was given. It was those of us who wanted to roll coal or save $100 on a catless DP that took the mile. I've run plenty of high-flow cats in PA and they all passed the emission test.
 


Ford ST

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#9
The issue is people deleting the emission devices on diesel trucks.
I drive a diesel work truck and for those who are not aware if these emission systems do not work properly you can't drive the truck it shuts it down. You don't put DEF fluid in you can't drive the truck. That is what they are cracking down on.


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Dpro

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#10
Catless is so much worse though...and pointless. 99.9% of the people will never ever need or miss the extra few ponies on the street. There is ZERO logic in that.

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I have been preaching about this for ages. All the FoST guys even guys here in California insist on running catless downpipes when they do turbo upgrades because of their claimed HP gain. They even influence some FiST owners who are friends with them and I try to explain that at least on the FiST the HP gain one gets on our cars even with a larger turbo is minimal and a complete waste of time money and causes dirtier air.

I do feel if a Hi flow cat downpipe does not trigger codes its doing its job and there is nothing wrong with it. Though it may not be smog legal here truth is if its on the car doing its job most smog techs will let it slide because you have it.
Especially now with the plug and go OBDII test. Since they are not putting the cars on rollers anymore its basically look at it yup looks like everything is there pretty stock looking. No codes off the ECU your good.
Plus if you do go to the ref for a roller test the max rpm is 2500 lol thats barely in boost and if your running a big turbo you are basically not in boost which means the engine will pass flying colors.
 


TyphoonFiST

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#11
All I'm saying is it all starts somewhere....Then it just grows and grows. Just wait until the electric phase comes and people start giving you grief about driving gas.
 


Dpro

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#12
The issue is people deleting the emission devices on diesel trucks.
I drive a diesel work truck and for those who are not aware if these emission systems do not work properly you can't drive the truck it shuts it down. You don't put DEF fluid in you can't drive the truck. That is what they are cracking down on.


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The whole diesel truck and diesels was largely ignored for too long. Because of strong lobbying by farms and trucking they got out of emission regs till about 4 years ago. Thing is diesel emission regs and designs are where gasoline engines where in the late 70‘s developmental wise. Its because of this the stuff you mention is happening. Diesel engine manufacturers need to step up the game design wise.
 


HBEcoBeaST

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#13
I have been preaching about this for ages. All the FoST guys even guys here in California insist on running catless downpipes when they do turbo upgrades because of their claimed HP gain. They even influence some FiST owners who are friends with them and I try to explain that at least on the FiST the HP gain one gets on our cars even with a larger turbo is minimal and a complete waste of time money and causes dirtier air.

I do feel if a Hi flow cat downpipe does not trigger codes its doing its job and there is nothing wrong with it. Though it may not be smog legal here truth is if its on the car doing its job most smog techs will let it slide because you have it.
Especially now with the plug and go OBDII test. Since they are not putting the cars on rollers anymore its basically look at it yup looks like everything is there pretty stock looking. No codes off the ECU your good.
Plus if you do go to the ref for a roller test the max rpm is 2500 lol thats barely in boost and if your running a big turbo you are basically not in boost which means the engine will pass flying colors.
When I did my 'inspection' for an illegal modification they were very thorough under the hood and even checked to make sure it was turbocharged from the factory. I'm sure a hybrid 'could' pass, but the new silicone hoses would definitely draw attention to the unit.

They didn't put my car on rollers but I had to show it passed smog since I got the ticket.

My ticket was the perfect storm of stupidity the first week I had my car. Going too fast, tinted windows, no plates, no registration in my name other than email receipts, AP flopping around on the dash....


But back to the OP. The 'defeat' these diesels are using is ecu trickery that a performance tune wouldn't be attempting. Basically when the diesels were sensing they were on rollers, they'd run a different cleaner tune. On the road they'd run a tune that wouldn't pass smog. Now that's some shady, blatant rule breaking. I'm firmly against over-regulation, but this type of behavior from a global company will just give the EPA more reason to crack down.

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#14
More regulation is never good.
Their reach is pretty far too, i know someone who received a letter over a tuner he bought 7 years ago asking for proof that the tune had been removed or face a full-on inspection the next time his registration was up. I do believe the vehicle was sold last year so he didnt have to deal with that.
 


Dpro

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#15
When I did my 'inspection' for an illegal modification they were very thorough under the hood and even checked to make sure it was turbocharged from the factory. I'm sure a hybrid 'could' pass, but the new silicone hoses would definitely draw attention to the unit.

They didn't put my car on rollers but I had to show it passed smog since I got the ticket.

My ticket was the perfect storm of stupidity the first week I had my car. Going too fast, tinted windows, no plates, no registration in my name other than email receipts, AP flopping around on the dash....


But back to the OP. The 'defeat' these diesels are using is ecu trickery that a performance tune wouldn't be attempting. Basically when the diesels were sensing they were on rollers, they'd run a different cleaner tune. On the road they'd run a tune that wouldn't pass smog. Now that's some shady, blatant rule breaking. I'm firmly against over-regulation, but this type of behavior from a global company will just give the EPA more reason to crack down.

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Silicone hoses are not illegal you got an asshole ref if he made a big deal about them,. Also didn’t you get pulled over Irvine which is basIcally ticket waiting to happen land.

Anyways ya if they are running tunes to specifically cheat the rollers thats just rolling the dice lol. Plus I personally feel diesels need to be cracked down. The central Valley should not have smog and does because for years all the diesel farm equipment was getting away with spewing due to lobbying by the farms who had a strong pull Sacremento. CARB finally cracked down on that shit though. Also all the damn diesel container ships that just idle 24/7 in the harbors.
 


jeffreylyon

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#16
More regulation is never good.
Their reach is pretty far too, i know someone who received a letter over a tuner he bought 7 years ago asking for proof that the tune had been removed or face a full-on inspection the next time his registration was up. I do believe the vehicle was sold last year so he didnt have to deal with that.
This is what Cali looks like. I'd far rather that the EPA (Federal) force the aftermarket to stop selling coal-roll tunes and catless DPs than being threatened over an AccessPort I bought several years ago.
 


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#17
I'm actually fine with this- not only for the long term effects planet-wide, but also so there are fewer catless cars I have to sit behind in the autocross queue nastifying the air I breathe.
I remember back in the 80s and 90s when everyone was complaining about how emissions regulations killed all the performance cars. In the years since, the regulations have become more stringent, yet the 180 hp V8 Corvettes are eclipsed by stock FiSTs are making ~200 hp. It may be a slow trek, but technology can find a way to provide cleaner, more efficient, more powerful engines.
 


Ford ST

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#18
The whole diesel truck and diesels was largely ignored for too long. Because of strong lobbying by farms and trucking they got out of emission regs till about 4 years ago. Thing is diesel emission regs and designs are where gasoline engines where in the late 70‘s developmental wise. Its because of this the stuff you mention is happening. Diesel engine manufacturers need to step up the game design wise.
What kind of sucks though is some of that diesel emissions stuff has been installed on gasoline vehicles in Europe. Particulate filters are just not a good idea they reduce efficiency and make the vehicle consume more fuel especially during the regen process.

Anyway I hope we don't get particulate filters on gasoline vehicles in America, and I hope they eventually find a different way on diesels.

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M-Sport fan

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#19
Catless is so much worse though...and pointless. 99.9% of the people will never ever need or miss the extra few ponies on the street. There is ZERO logic in that.

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It may not even be "a few" extra ponies, at ANY rev range, or with any BT setup, given how good the catted DPs are nowadays. [wink]
 


Clint Beastwood

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#20
I’m all for getting rid of catless downpipes. They’re mostly pointless and they stink. Too many brand new straight piped Amgs, mustangs, and Audi’s around me. They smell bad, they sound assy, and it has the overall effect of galvanizing public opinion agains automotive enthusiasts in general. Do what you want, go catless, whatever, but realize that your car smelling horrible and being so loud it wakes up babies in the morning is going to encourage people to support increasingly stringent laws and enforcement.

modern stock cats probably flow better than the high flow ones I was buying in the 90’s so I really don’t see the point. I can’t help but laugh when I see “added a catless downpipe to go with my Cobb ots tune, how do I quiet my car?”. Aren’t some of the fastest stock turbo cars running stock exhaust anyways?

I don’t know how dodge (srt4) and fiat (500 a Seth) did it, but they sounded great with no mufflers and no drone. Add a catless dp to either and they sounded awful and ragged.

if you want a catless dp, be honest about why. It’s not for performance, you want one because you want one. That’s fine! But do your research, and be mindful of how your choices affect others. Catless saves 100 bucks - but you know what saves even more? Leaving the stock cat, since it isn’t a real bottleneck.
 


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