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something new i want...

jeffreylyon

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#21
Forgive my interjection, but the horsepower formula is (RPM * Torque)/5252. Alternatively, and close to your quote, RPM * Torque = 5252x; solve for x. What you suggest is that (RPM * Torque) = (HP * RPM).
When I said "HP is just (torque * RPM)" I meant the relationship is direct; you can't reduce torque and end up with more HP. Anything that increases torque increases HP at any given engine speed. Some mods. decrease torque at lower revs. in order to increase torque at higher revs. or vice verse, but this mod. decreases spinning inertia and parasitic loss, thus delivering more net torque at every engine speed at some cost of drivability while slipping the clutch to get the car moving.

(RPM * torque) = (HP * RPM) means that torque = HP (not true).
 

danbfree

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#22
When I said "HP is just (torque * RPM)" I meant the relationship is direct; you can't reduce torque and end up with more HP. Anything that increases torque increases HP at any given engine speed. Some mods. decrease torque at lower revs. in order to increase torque at higher revs. or vice verse, but this mod. decreases spinning inertia and parasitic loss, thus delivering more net torque at every engine speed at some cost of drivability while slipping the clutch to get the car moving.

(RPM * torque) = (HP * RPM) means that torque = HP (not true).
This crap has always confused me, I always figured torque is the twisting force rating power at the engines lower RPM's and HP is the "carrying" force generated at higher RPM's, to over simplify, which is of course not technically correct but how I choose to think of the differences in rating... Then you see cars rated with the same torque but higher HP if you use premium, tuned differently for different models (Ford/Hyundai/Kia 1.6T's) or the "Performance" model of a car makes the same torque but is rated for higher HP then the non-performance version too... All very confusing... I DO know I'd like to take that excessive low-end torque we have and trade some for a bit more upper RPM pull, I mean, who wouldn't for those of us with a stock turbo, I just don't think that's possible without a turbo upgrade... So in this case, does the pulley "free up" some higher end power that could be categorized as "HP" while the torque is the same or would torque be rated higher too but at a higher RPM?
 

jeffreylyon

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#23
This crap has always confused me, I always figured torque is the twisting force rating power at the engines lower RPM's and HP is the "carrying" force generated at higher RPM's, to over simplify, which is of course not technically correct but how I choose to think of the differences in rating... Then you see cars rated with the same torque but higher HP if you use premium, tuned differently for different models (Ford/Hyundai/Kia 1.6T's) or the "Performance" model of a car makes the same torque but is rated for higher HP then the non-performance version too... All very confusing... I DO know I'd like to take that excessive low-end torque we have and trade some for a bit more upper RPM pull, I mean, who wouldn't for those of us with a stock turbo, I just don't think that's possible without a turbo upgrade.
We care about HP because it describes torque at upper RPM which is important as we can delay up-shifting, something that further divides engine torque (the gearbox trades torque for wheel speed). With that in mind, a numerically lower final drive will reduce wheel-delivered torque *but* the car will be faster (MPH) in any given gear. This kinda/sorta trades low end torque or a broader wheel-delivered torque curve. Important to note is that this has *no* effect on HP as there is less wheel-delivered torque but greater wheel speed (don't get started on that, again, MeeLee/ProDigit!)

In other words, a longer (numerically lower) final drive will reduce the delivered toque in 1st but let you stay in 1st longer.
 

danbfree

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#24
We care about HP because it describes torque at upper RPM which is important as we can delay up-shifting, something that further divides engine torque (the gearbox trades torque for wheel speed). With that in mind, a numerically lower final drive will reduce wheel-delivered torque *but* the car will be faster (MPH) in any given gear. This kinda/sorta trades low end torque or a broader wheel-delivered torque curve. Important to note is that this has *no* effect on HP as there is less wheel-delivered torque but greater wheel speed (don't get started on that, again, MeeLee/ProDigit!)

In other words, a longer (numerically lower) final drive will reduce the delivered toque in 1st but let you stay in 1st longer.
Not to dive too deeply into gearing here, I am certainly aware of how that works and I know I wish our final drive was indeed few points lower/slightly longer geared after being tuned. So much of the car is designed around the stock power output with Ford obviously intentionally neutering a nice chunk of natural generated torque from the tiny turbo to fit the "package" they had in mind, and that's clear from seeing how much torque can be had with just a tune, but that's the thing: Typically we see an e30 car making 50 whp / 80 whtq over stock and even a Stage 1 Cobb OTS tune makes only a few HP but a good chunk more torque, almost like it's just that easy to unlock what Ford has removed intentionally. Now, with just an OTS tune, the car actually feels pretty well balanced and could pas for what Ford could have chosen to easily tune for from an engine reliability standpoint, but they have long-term warranty issues with axles, transmission, emissions, etc... But going back to e30, at that point gearing definitely feels short adding even more torque that the tiny turbo likes to make.

So what are some solutions for putting that power down? We already know the typical things like upgraded mounts, suspension and of course LSD... But is there any way to actually spread that power from donkey kick, wheel spinning torque at lower RPM's in 2nd to a little more up high instead so the tires have a chance to hook up? That's what I'm wondering if this pulley can help with a little, it could be an overlooked way to help tame that as we know that the stock turbo simply does what it does based on its size, it can't just be tuned to flow differently without sacrificing overall performance... Also, if the water pump is being spun slower with the larger pulley, does the extra time the coolant spends passing through the radiator help give it time to cool off to make up for the slower flow? Only while moving maybe and could create even more heat issues if stuck in stop n go traffic in the summer? Would just a thermostat change from to the new 180 Ford one help? These are all things I'm curious about, as if it does help spread that power band further up, even a little, and doesn't negatively affect cooling much this could be a great little upgrade for those of us on stock turbos.
 

jeff

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#25
Not to dive too deeply into gearing here, I am certainly aware of how that works and I know I wish our final drive was indeed few points lower/slightly longer geared after being tuned. So much of the car is designed around the stock power output with Ford obviously intentionally neutering a nice chunk of natural generated torque from the tiny turbo to fit the "package" they had in mind, and that's clear from seeing how much torque can be had with just a tune, but that's the thing: Typically we see an e30 car making 50 whp / 80 whtq over stock and even a Stage 1 Cobb OTS tune makes only a few HP but a good chunk more torque, almost like it's just that easy to unlock what Ford has removed intentionally. Now, with just an OTS tune, the car actually feels pretty well balanced and could pas for what Ford could have chosen to easily tune for from an engine reliability standpoint, but they have long-term warranty issues with axles, transmission, emissions, etc... But going back to e30, at that point gearing definitely feels short adding even more torque that the tiny turbo likes to make.

So what are some solutions for putting that power down? We already know the typical things like upgraded mounts, suspension and of course LSD... But is there any way to actually spread that power from donkey kick, wheel spinning torque at lower RPM's in 2nd to a little more up high instead so the tires have a chance to hook up? That's what I'm wondering if this pulley can help with a little, it could be an overlooked way to help tame that as we know that the stock turbo simply does what it does based on its size, it can't just be tuned to flow differently without sacrificing overall performance... Also, if the water pump is being spun slower with the larger pulley, does the extra time the coolant spends passing through the radiator help give it time to cool off to make up for the slower flow? Only while moving maybe and could create even more heat issues if stuck in stop n go traffic in the summer? Would just a thermostat change from to the new 180 Ford one help? These are all things I'm curious about, as if it does help spread that power band further up, even a little, and doesn't negatively affect cooling much this could be a great little upgrade for those of us on stock turbos.
Gears 1 and 2 are always going to have a problem handling full power unless you get tank treads. The point of this pulley mod for me is more pull in gears 3 and 4.
 

Ford ST

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#26
Gears 1 and 2 are always going to have a problem handling full power unless you get tank treads. The point of this pulley mod for me is more pull in gears 3 and 4.
Tell me about it I could spend the tires off of my Ford escort in first gear.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 

jeffreylyon

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#27
That's what I'm wondering if this pulley can help with a little, it could be an overlooked way to help tame that as we know that the stock turbo simply does what it does based on its size, it can't just be tuned to flow differently without sacrificing overall performance...
It won't. This mod. will increase torque everywhere while, maybe, make launching and stop-and-go a little more difficult.

I'm looking forward to [MENTION=3995]jeff[/MENTION]'s review.
 

jeff

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#28
Well I got mine today....I must say I am quite impressed, somehow Pumaspeed got it across the ocean to me in 3 days. The product looks fine however I am slightly pissed because I ordered some swag and instead of putting 2 size L t-shirts in the box they put 1 size XL polo shirt....how do you miss that? Still waiting to hear back from them on that but anyhow my friend Daniel aka [MENTION=4142]SwAp GaS[/MENTION] the master genius mechanic is going to help me install this as I'm not familiar with pulleys, once done (hopefully next week) and I get some time behind the wheel I'll make a separate review thread.

For now a few pics, I grabbed the red to match my other red bling:



 
OP
grumpycat
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Thread Starter #29
Nice info sir TY!! Looking forward to your results. Btw I installed a Revo last Saturday, havent had her tuned yet but am getting 316whp/319lbft, blew off an intercooler hose on a test drive and now have double clamps on them, whats that 360bhp roughly, thats almost a 100whp increase since last weekend... [burnout]
grumpy360hp.JPG
 

TyphoonFiST

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Rich-fizzield
#30
Nice info sir TY!! Looking forward to your results. Btw I installed a Revo last Saturday, havent had her tuned yet but am getting 316whp/319lbft, blew off an intercooler hose on a test drive and now have double clamps on them, whats that 360bhp roughly, thats almost a 100whp increase since last weekend... [burnout]
View attachment 19156
You might want to set smoothing down to 3 BTW....FYI...... [readthis]


 
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Dripping Springs
#31
Grumpy - would love to check out your setup some time. I'm not on FB and we don't see a lot of action on the South sub-forum. Sorry to digress - what part of the city are you in? Perhaps I'll see you around-

Jeff- I'm keenly awaiting your impression. I've had pulley's (and light flywheels) on all of my previous rides - something I haven't seen much on this platform yet.
 

jeff

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#32
Grumpy - would love to check out your setup some time. I'm not on FB and we don't see a lot of action on the South sub-forum. Sorry to digress - what part of the city are you in? Perhaps I'll see you around-

Jeff- I'm keenly awaiting your impression. I've had pulley's (and light flywheels) on all of my previous rides - something I haven't seen much on this platform yet.
Cool man. I was driving around this morning on my e30 tune in the cold, having second thoughts about the pulley. They are great mods for Hondas but our car has so much low end torque, especially if modded/tuned, the advantages of the pulley are going to be useless for me in 1st and 2nd gear. It's 3rd and 4th, however, that I anticipate seeing a nice change. Might have to adjust my traction control though for launching/pulls in 2nd gear because I expect the addition of the pulley to make it even more unmanageable.

Also I suspect Puma might release other pulleys (PS, crank) in the future or have a complete set/package which will bring further possibilities...why stop at just the one? We will see.

Planning to install tomorrow, if/when I do I'll post within a few days and talk about it, probably on another detailed review thread.
 
OP
grumpycat
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Thread Starter #33
Hey Gim im in south Austin, by Crockett HS, same place since 69' ;) Hi Jeff i did that change to smoothing see below;
Capture3.JPG
 
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#35
Not to dive too deeply into gearing here, I am certainly aware of how that works and I know I wish our final drive was indeed few points lower/slightly longer geared after being tuned. So much of the car is designed around the stock power output with Ford obviously intentionally neutering a nice chunk of natural generated torque from the tiny turbo to fit the "package" they had in mind, and that's clear from seeing how much torque can be had with just a tune, but that's the thing: Typically we see an e30 car making 50 whp / 80 whtq over stock and even a Stage 1 Cobb OTS tune makes only a few HP but a good chunk more torque, almost like it's just that easy to unlock what Ford has removed intentionally. Now, with just an OTS tune, the car actually feels pretty well balanced and could pas for what Ford could have chosen to easily tune for from an engine reliability standpoint, but they have long-term warranty issues with axles, transmission, emissions, etc... But going back to e30, at that point gearing definitely feels short adding even more torque that the tiny turbo likes to make.

So what are some solutions for putting that power down? We already know the typical things like upgraded mounts, suspension and of course LSD... But is there any way to actually spread that power from donkey kick, wheel spinning torque at lower RPM's in 2nd to a little more up high instead so the tires have a chance to hook up? That's what I'm wondering if this pulley can help with a little, it could be an overlooked way to help tame that as we know that the stock turbo simply does what it does based on its size, it can't just be tuned to flow differently without sacrificing overall performance... Also, if the water pump is being spun slower with the larger pulley, does the extra time the coolant spends passing through the radiator help give it time to cool off to make up for the slower flow? Only while moving maybe and could create even more heat issues if stuck in stop n go traffic in the summer? Would just a thermostat change from to the new 180 Ford one help? These are all things I'm curious about, as if it does help spread that power band further up, even a little, and doesn't negatively affect cooling much this could be a great little upgrade for those of us on stock turbos.

You can always put a little taller tire on the car 205/45-17's instead of the factory 205/40-17's. This will give you the net effect of changing the gear ratio to a numerically higher ratio. This will help to some degree, but you will still over power the front tires in 1st and 2nd. You can also limit torque in 1st and 2nd gear to help aide with traction issues, then ramp it up in gears 3-6. My tune limits torque (22psi) in 1st and 2nd, then raises it to 25psi on 93 in gears 3-6.
 
Last edited:

danbfree

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#37
You can always put a little taller tire on the car 215/45-17's instead of the factory 215/40-17's. This will give you the net effect of changing the gear ratio to a numerically higher ratio. This will help to some degree, but you will still over power the front tires in 1st and 2nd. You can also limit torque in 1st and 2nd gear to help aide with traction issues, then ramp it up in gears 3-6. My tune limits torque (22psi) in 1st and 2nd, then raises it to 25psi on 93 in gears 3-6.
You know, I JUST recently discovered talk of this, after 9 months of reading this forum, FB groups and Reddit, it's not really discussed much at ALL and it REALLY should be! In fact, it should be pretty much the default way aftermarket tuners do for stock turbos and I'm going to do this myself: Prob have my tuner even limit a little lower, to 20 psi even in 1st and 2nd, and full boost 3rd-6th... thanks for mentioning this! I really can't think of any downside for those who don't have an LSD, I think the car will actually be quicker this way, being able to put the power down better and with less strain on the drivetrain... And factory tires are actually 205/40/17 and I'm planning on going a little bigger at 215/40/17, there is 0.3" extra sidewall/height in that profile and 10mm wider for more traction too...
 
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Houston
#38
You know, I JUST recently discovered talk of this, after 9 months of reading this forum, FB groups and Reddit, it's not really discussed much at ALL and it REALLY should be! In fact, it should be pretty much the default way aftermarket tuners do for stock turbos and I'm going to do this myself: Prob have my tuner even limit a little lower, to 20 psi even in 1st and 2nd, and full boost 3rd-6th... thanks for mentioning this! I really can't think of any downside for those who don't have an LSD, I think the car will actually be quicker this way, being able to put the power down better and with less strain on the drivetrain... And factory tires are actually 205/40/17 and I'm planning on going a little bigger at 215/40/17, there is 0.3" extra sidewall/height in that profile and 10mm wider for more traction too...
Oops, you're right! Factory tires are 205/40-17 I just recently changed mine to 205/45-17's for a little better ride. I don't drive my car hard enough to exceed the limits of these tires, however it does sacrifice some of the sharp turn in of the factory tires, but it's also a lot less darty. I looked at the 215/40-17's, however because my car is just a straight highway commuter it really didn't make sense for my application.

Yes, torque limiting in 1st and 2nd really helps get the car moving with a lot less dramatics. I use Cobbs/Stratified's TC which I find to be less intrusive than the factory TC. I very rarely ever dump the clutch or race the FiST, so it's really a moot point for me. HAHA!
 

danbfree

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#39
Oops, you're right! Factory tires are 205/40-17 I just recently changed mine to 205/45-17's for a little better ride. I don't drive my car hard enough to exceed the limits of these tires, however it does sacrifice some of the sharp turn in of the factory tires, but it's also a lot less darty. I looked at the 215/40-17's, however because my car is just a straight highway commuter it really didn't make sense for my application.

Yes, torque limiting in 1st and 2nd really helps get the car moving with a lot less dramatics. I use Cobbs/Stratified's TC which I find to be less intrusive than the factory TC. I very rarely ever dump the clutch or race the FiST, so it's really a moot point for me. HAHA!
Yeah, I don't believe in making your tires part of the "suspension" by increasing the sidewall ratio, especially if you care about sharp turn in at all, that's the ratio the suspension is designed for, but I'll take that touch of a bit taller in the same profile at the next size wider. I know I'm in the minority here, to each their own, but I decided the progressive Eibach springs will be the best way to improve ride and better looks with it's perfectly modest drop, just my take... and I'm going wider not for cornering but for this exact topic of "putting the power down" when accelerating quickly, I had a very similar powered Kia hatchback, Focus sized, that came with 225/40/18 and it's torque steer was nearly non-existent but I never got around to tuning it because it was so much more expensive and have to ship the ECU, although that's changed there too, but anyway, yeah, way more torque now on a smaller FiST platform, wider and stickier tires will help for sure ... and oh yes, the Cobb version of TC uses timing to cut power far more elegantly than the "safety" oriented fuel cut and braking method employed by Ford, that's an absolute given and the reason why even most people who hate TC can accept use of this far better system in some cases... Good chat and good ideas here, thanks!
 

kivnul

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#40
You know, I JUST recently discovered talk of this, after 9 months of reading this forum, FB groups and Reddit, it's not really discussed much at ALL and it REALLY should be! In fact, it should be pretty much the default way aftermarket tuners do for stock turbos and I'm going to do this myself: Prob have my tuner even limit a little lower, to 20 psi even in 1st and 2nd, and full boost 3rd-6th... thanks for mentioning this! I really can't think of any downside ...
I specifically had my tuner uncork 2nd gear: it was limited to 18 PSI and while Autocrossing it was capping how long it took to get to the 3rd gear shift point. Now I just have to modulate the throttle more. (Workin' on my skills)
 


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