Woods247 BrokeFiST Build

[Woods247]

Yikes! I guess your hubs see more abuse than the average fiesta owner, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that happening

They definitely do. The added grip and power along with frequent curb strikes, extreme heat cycling and high G loads is likely outside of their intended design parameters. The vibrations began after jumping a small curb during my second flyer lap on the first session of the day. Jumping that particular curb is required for fast laps and I’ve bent a few rims there over the years. It’s a right hander so all of the drive force and weight it’s shoved into the driver front hub momentarily. Most tracks I frequent run clockwise so that hub sees a lot of abuse. It lasted over 50k miles so I wouldn’t be too concerned. Well over 30k of those miles were on race tracks. I’ve yet to have a wheel bearing issue, however. Just this hub failure..

 

[Woods247]

When tracking a lot this happens. I agree, based on how many days a year your car is on track, hubs and bearings are a definite yearly thing.

Yeah I sorta knew it was time but my plan was to swap them all at the end of the season. I’m glad it held together. It could’ve popped at 110mph in T12 at Road Atlanta just seconds before I felt the initial vibrations. That would’ve 100% ended this car and likely bruised me up pretty good.😂

I ALWAYS check each hub before every trackday because AMP destroys them on other cars. I make 4k vids with my phone and review them since it’s much easier to zoom in and see details. They were totally fine before hopping T3 on my second flyer. First flyer was a 1:41 and I was on schedule for a 1:39 so I was definitely carrying more speed through T1 that lap. I got really lucky.

On a side note, the new 5” splitter seems to be a lot more effective than the 3”. After reviewing video I could see where the car didn’t drift all the way out like it did before. I just need to find the balls to commit and carry more speed since the grip is definitely there. Once the new hubs are on and the defective RT660 is swapped I’ll push. I’m scheduled to back to RA this Thursday but I’m not sure if we can get the parts in time.

 

[Fusion Works]

In my opinion the wheel bearings on these are kinda small. It makes a difference in the life. The OE bearing is 72mm OD and 39mm ID. For comparison the bearings on my Integra is 78mm OD and 43mm ID. Lighter weight car with larger wheel bearings.

Ford seems to undersize the bearings on their shitboxes. Been doing that for years, The Focus SVT bearings were tiny and their hubs would break on a regular basis after a couple of track days. Superhubs were a requirement to be reliable on track.

A larger wheel bearing would be a solid improvement the strength of the hub connection. You would get better camber stiffness, less brake pedal knock back, etc. That is a lot of work for the normal guys to get into. So replacement on a regular schedule is a good idea.

Ford did us a really nice favor by making the front and rear hubs and bearings all the same. That did nice things for the rear wheel bearing strength.

 

[Woods247]

In my opinion the wheel bearings on these are kinda small. It makes a difference in the life. The OE bearing is 72mm OD and 39mm ID. For comparison the bearings on my Integra is 78mm OD and 43mm ID. Lighter weight car with larger wheel bearings.

Ford seems to undersize the bearings on their shitboxes. Been doing that for years, The Focus SVT bearings were tiny and their hubs would break on a regular basis after a couple of track days. Superhubs were a requirement to be reliable on track.

A larger wheel bearing would be a solid improvement the strength of the hub connection. You would get better camber stiffness, less brake pedal knock back, etc. That is a lot of work for the normal guys to get into. So replacement on a regular schedule is a good idea.

Ford did us a really nice favor by making the front and rear hubs and bearings all the same. That did nice things for the rear wheel bearing strength.

Wanna build us some better hubs in 5x114.3? If anyone can it’s you.

 

[Fusion Works]

Wanna build us some better hubs in 5x114.3? If anyone can it’s you.

Oh you dirty bastard.


Actually after reading your thread this morning I wandered over to the Ford dealer website to look at some pictures of the Focus ST parts. Such a conversion would require at a minimum new outer CV joint (possible custom), some custom work on the rear to mount the Focus rear Hub, if its possible to make the ABS system work with the Focus magnetic ring, a new knuckle for the front.

Let me keep studying this one. I have been wanting to build a dual axis knuckle like the Honda, Renault, and Focus RS, could be done with the Focus Parts I think. 5x108 gets you some pretty good wheel choices, that said though, could probably redrill to 5x114.3. This would be a pretty comprehensive conversion.

 

[cidsamuth]

I am in on stronger hubs. Bonus if we can get a more common lug pattern to open up wheel choices.

I have ABS disconnected in order to shut off all torque vectoring, so that part is not a concern for me. I realize, I’m probably in the minority there.

 

[Fusion Works]

Why bother with stronger hubs? Matt has done 100+ track days on his hubs and they finally broke? If you are gonna track the car, just put the hubs and bearings on the replacement list.

New hubs are $40, and Bearings are $45. So once every couple of years you can do all the hubs and bearings for $340 and some labor. Maybe $450 with rear hardware, and some incidentals. Hubs alone are probably gonna run almost $1000 a pair. They will be a bit stronger but not enough to justify just maintaining your track car every few years.

I was figureing building around the Ford Focus ST parts, that goes to a 5x108 pattern, but there is room to use the 5x114.3 or most any other common 5 lug pattern on those hubs. I am at $200 alone in the cheapest Chinese parts to build a prototype setup from. That is basically allowing me to start development on one side of the car.
I was thinking about using the Focus Front hub and bearing all the way around the car I probably would try test the Focus rear just to see how well it would work, but I don't know if the ABS trigger is the same. Using the Focus Rear hub or the front on the rear will require some sort of rear bearing housing or caliper bracket like the OE setup.

 

[cidsamuth]

I’m confused. Are you looking into the Focus parts in order to offer a stronger alternative, or are you arguing we should stick with OEM parts and change them out more?

 

[Fusion Works]

Both. For the average track day and street guy the OE parts are plenty adequate if you replace them on a reasonable maintenance schedule. If you are doing 20-40+ track days a year, I might do fronts every year and rears every other year. If you are doing less, maybe change them every couple of years.

For the hardcore track guys, I am looking at Focus ST parts for stronger less flexible components and a "commonish" bolt pattern. These would kind of be the ultimate "upgrade". They are in no way a bolt on part, but they would probably be more than adequate for the hardcore racers and track day guys. These parts would be a whole system front and rear. Not cheap, but more than strong enough for the application without having custom bearings and hubs and such.

 

[Woods247]

Yeah the five lug bolt pattern is a big advantage for wheel options but honestly it’s more cost effective to just swap them every season or two with new OEM replacements. My stock hubs have been reliable even with wide sticky tires, aggressive offsets and punishing curb strikes. 17x8 light weight wheel options in 4x108 are nonexistent. Can we redrill 4x108 to 5x108 @Fusion Works without compromising hub strength? I don’t know if there’s an advantage to that bolt pattern when it comes to finding wheels but I’ll dig a little and see.

Edit: 5x108 isn’t that great but 5x100 is. There’s a ton of great 17x8 5x100 et35 wheels. It’s still cheaper to have custom 4x108 wheels made than it is to custom make 5x100 hubs that still need to be replaced every year or two. Forget I even went down this rabbit hole.. 😂 When the Rotas crack I’ll buy custom 4x108 wheels.

 

[Fusion Works]

I would need to spend some time with a hub to see what room is on there for a 5 lug pattern. Might be possible. Send me your unbroken one when you swap it out and I will start playing with a 5 lug option based on the OE parts.

Yeah my idea of the Focus conversion would be kind of a one off ballerz solution. It would be a way to get more track width also. not sure how much yet.

 

[Fusion Works]

Looks like there is room, especially if I made steel slugs to go back in the holes where the 4 lug holes were. That would add back a bit of strength under braking.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Yeah the five lug bolt pattern is a big advantage for wheel options but honestly it’s more cost effective to just swap them every season or two with new OEM replacements. My stock hubs have been reliable even with wide sticky tires, aggressive offsets and punishing curb strikes. 17x8 light weight wheel options in 4x108 are nonexistent. Can we redrill 4x108 to 5x108 @Fusion Works without compromising hub strength? I don’t know if there’s an advantage to that bolt pattern when it comes to finding wheels but I’ll dig a little and see.

Edit: 5x108 isn’t that great but 5x100 is. There’s a ton of great 17x8 5x100 et35 wheels. It’s still cheaper to have custom 4x108 wheels made than it is to custom make 5x100 hubs that still need to be replaced every year or two. Forget I even went down this rabbit hole.. 😂 When the Rotas crack I’ll buy custom 4x108 wheels.

Would CCW even consider a smaller diameter than they are usually used to producing, 4 bolt wheel at all??

 

[Woods247]

Would CCW even consider a smaller diameter than they are usually used to producing, 4 bolt wheel at all??

Not sure but honestly I’d be 100% satisfied with Konig Ultragrams or Ampliforms. I have a good buddy reaching out to them. They have a few wheels in our bolt pattern but the offsets and clearance won’t work for my car. Aesthetically I LOVE the Ampliform and Ultragram too. Y’all know how I like things to visually flow and function with my build. 😂

 

[Fusion Works]

CCW will make what ever you want. Have run 4x114.3 on a GTU Mazda RX7 in the past. If you want light weight Forgeline or Keizer make a super light wheel. Probably could run BBS spun rims if you could find centers you want.

I also would like a little better wheel choices, wonder if I should experiment on my own ride and re-drill the OE hubs. HAHA. "I really should stop modifying my daily driver"

 

[cidsamuth]

Both. For the average track day and street guy the OE parts are plenty adequate if you replace them on a reasonable maintenance schedule. If you are doing 20-40+ track days a year, I might do fronts every year and rears every other year. If you are doing less, maybe change them every couple of years.

For the hardcore track guys, I am looking at Focus ST parts for stronger less flexible components and a "commonish" bolt pattern. These would kind of be the ultimate "upgrade". They are in no way a bolt on part, but they would probably be more than adequate for the hardcore racers and track day guys. These parts would be a whole system front and rear. Not cheap, but more than strong enough for the application without having custom bearings and hubs and such.

My statement stands. If you make and sell a bigger hub with a more common lug pattern, I’m interested, cost dependent.

 

[cidsamuth]

Not sure but honestly I’d be 100% satisfied with Konig Ultragrams or Ampliforms. I have a good buddy reaching out to them. They have a few wheels in our bolt pattern but the offsets and clearance won’t work for my car. Aesthetically I LOVE the Ampliform and Ultragram too. Y’all know how I like things to visually flow and function with my build. 😂

I’m fighting this now. I just put a custom one-off BBK in mine, and the calipers are huge. I bought 17” Hypergrams thinking they would clear, and they don’t. A call to Konig reveals they have nothing with more brake clearance for the 4x108, so I have to start playing with heavier wheels, which sucks.

 

[Fusion Works]

What brake kit/rotor size/caliper, etc? My 12.88 x1.10 rotor and 6pot caliper clear my Rota Recce's great. They even clear my stock wheels with a 5-7mm spacer. (can't remember what I machined my spacer down to)

Would you want a four lug or five lug pattern? There is room to re-drill to 4x100 or other 4 lug patterns on the stock hubs.

 

[Woods247]

4x100 is a common bolt pattern for redrilling our hubs and wheels with that bolt pattern are plentiful. I have a buddy who’s reaching out to Konig to see if we can get the 17x8 et45 4x100 Ultragram custom drilled in 4x108. If that’s a possibility it’ll be the best for my purposes since I already have 10mm spacers. I’d rather not have to change my Stoptech rotor hats and redrill new FoRS rear rotors again to accommodate a new bolt pattern.

 

[Fusion Works]

If there is enough meat in the wheels, Team Dynamics California used these on a set of wheels I sold someone years ago.

http://www.prestigewheel.com/mainInserts.htm

Make the 4x100 hole bigger and offset it for the 4x108 and use these inserts for strength.