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Electrical clicking sound (Not the blend door actuator)
- Thread starter Hanzo
- Start date
Hey Hanzo,
I bought my FiST yesterday, and noticed the exact same thing you're describing just this morning. I hadn't pinpointed the exact location, but could hear it most clearly when I stuck my head by the glovebox/passenger door planes of intersection. As I haven't had a chance to take it back and have it looked at, I figured I would check in here. Will keep you updated if I get any good info from the dealer.
I bought my FiST yesterday, and noticed the exact same thing you're describing just this morning. I hadn't pinpointed the exact location, but could hear it most clearly when I stuck my head by the glovebox/passenger door planes of intersection. As I haven't had a chance to take it back and have it looked at, I figured I would check in here. Will keep you updated if I get any good info from the dealer.
After talking with the kid who answered the phone in the service department at the dealership where I bought the car, I have basically lost all confidence in their ability to not break my car further. So, I got out and did a little troubleshooting of my own. I pulled the glovebox and had a helper start and shutoff the car a few times while I felt each of the relays. I was hoping that only one would be fluctuating wildly, and that by simply replacing it I would be all set. Unfortunately, all 5 of the 4 prong relays on the fuse block are opening and closing wildly when the ignition button is pressed. This leads me to believe I may have bigger problems than a bad relay. Still going to give replacing them a shot first.
Hey Hanzo,
I suppose I can't definitively say it isn't working as intended. However, after those multiple start and stop tests it is worth noting that the relays are getting so hot that the oem part # printed on the relays can be wiped off (at least on my car). And so from an engineering standpoint, if this is intentional behavior then it is just poor design - heat and cyclic fatigue being the enemy of these relays. I very much doubt that is the case though, given the time and effort that went into the design of this vehicle, as well as how good the rest of it is. Ive also only ever started and driven 1 other FiST (a 2016), so my experience with these specific vehicles is limited, but it does not make any relay noise when starting or shutting down and also starts more quickly (tested the '16 again after my troubles started). All this leads me to believe it is just a defect that either developed after manufacture or happened to slip past final checks - I'd imagine the clicking would be hard to hear inside a production facility. This is all just fwiw, your symptoms may not be as bad as mine.
I suppose I can't definitively say it isn't working as intended. However, after those multiple start and stop tests it is worth noting that the relays are getting so hot that the oem part # printed on the relays can be wiped off (at least on my car). And so from an engineering standpoint, if this is intentional behavior then it is just poor design - heat and cyclic fatigue being the enemy of these relays. I very much doubt that is the case though, given the time and effort that went into the design of this vehicle, as well as how good the rest of it is. Ive also only ever started and driven 1 other FiST (a 2016), so my experience with these specific vehicles is limited, but it does not make any relay noise when starting or shutting down and also starts more quickly (tested the '16 again after my troubles started). All this leads me to believe it is just a defect that either developed after manufacture or happened to slip past final checks - I'd imagine the clicking would be hard to hear inside a production facility. This is all just fwiw, your symptoms may not be as bad as mine.
Relays are responsible for powering various systems in the vehicle. If there was a problem, there would be systems in the vehicle that would fail to activate. For any safety related systems, such as airbags, this would trigger dash warning lights and codes. For other systems, such as the radio, HVAC or engine, the results would be obvious.
I can provide you one example where the relay flicking on, then off, then back on is normal. For instance, you hop in, shut the door, hit the Start button, the fogs come on, they turn back off, the engine cranks and starts, the fogs come back on.
Why? The keyless start doesn't just go straight from "off" to on. Like their key-bound fore-bearers, they progress through modes.
When you turn a key, it first goes into accessory mode. This just turns on the radio. For our keyless systems, this occurs when the doors are unlocked/opened or is shut with the fob inside the vehicle. (note: to prevent battery drain this times out after a period and goes back to "off")
Next, it goes into Run mode. From HVAC to engine computers to fog lights, this pretty much activates everything that normally operates while the engine runs. So, a WHOLE bunch-a-clicks. But it only stays there briefly.
After that, it goes into crank mode. Some of the things that were just turned on, get turned off... for example, accessories, fog lamps. Click, click, click, click...
After engine start, it goes back to "Run" mode... where all the things that were turned off, get turned back on. So, clickity, click, clickity, click, click, clickity click click....
So even though it's push button, in many ways it operates like it still has a key.
I can provide you one example where the relay flicking on, then off, then back on is normal. For instance, you hop in, shut the door, hit the Start button, the fogs come on, they turn back off, the engine cranks and starts, the fogs come back on.
Why? The keyless start doesn't just go straight from "off" to on. Like their key-bound fore-bearers, they progress through modes.
When you turn a key, it first goes into accessory mode. This just turns on the radio. For our keyless systems, this occurs when the doors are unlocked/opened or is shut with the fob inside the vehicle. (note: to prevent battery drain this times out after a period and goes back to "off")
Next, it goes into Run mode. From HVAC to engine computers to fog lights, this pretty much activates everything that normally operates while the engine runs. So, a WHOLE bunch-a-clicks. But it only stays there briefly.
After that, it goes into crank mode. Some of the things that were just turned on, get turned off... for example, accessories, fog lamps. Click, click, click, click...
After engine start, it goes back to "Run" mode... where all the things that were turned off, get turned back on. So, clickity, click, clickity, click, click, clickity click click....
So even though it's push button, in many ways it operates like it still has a key.
I have heard a buzzing noise from my door controls. The power switching voltage regulators for the light emitting diodes are responsible for that, and is normal. They're being run at very low brightness, which is beneficial for longevity. If they were dimmed to full brightness, the switching frequency would then be too high to hear.
Hey Inuit,
I don't get any of the buzzing noise you describe from my door, just the actuation of the relays behind the glovebox making a racket.
Also, the relay may not be the root cause of this - it's overactuation and the hard to start characteristics are the symptoms I'm able to detect. That said, relays can fail in more than one manner. For many years Mustangs had problems with relay coils overheating when energized and soldering the bridge in the circuit closed resulting in a constant on condition, as an example.
The best way to describe the noise is that of a relay being tested on a bench. Alligator clips/slip ons on the blades, and you go to energize it but you don't initially get a good connection to the battery/power source so the relay has a spasm so to speak. Just multiply that times 5.
But like I mentioned above, I'm convinced this isn't normal due to the level of heat and the number of times the relays actuate before the car will start - the number of times they actuate changes every time I try and start it but it is never quick to send power to the starter motor. They do this as well when I shut it off, and I would think they would just switch to the off position when powering down and not continue to cycle on off on off. It's really only a concern to me because all 5 of the relays on the fuse box under the dash (the 4 black 4 pins and the grey 5 pin ignition relay) exhibit the nonuniform behavior and I can feel the 2016 FiST cycle uniformly and near silently when you power it up (on when the system powers up, off to prevent power draw to other sources while cranking, then back on once the car is running like you describe). It also engages the starter motor in a fraction of the time it takes mine to. Otherwise, I'd just keep a few spare relays in the glovebox and call it good.
I'm dropping the car off tomorrow, so I'll keep everyone updated when I get feedback from the folks at my local dealership. Here's hoping I'm just being hypercritical.
I don't get any of the buzzing noise you describe from my door, just the actuation of the relays behind the glovebox making a racket.
Also, the relay may not be the root cause of this - it's overactuation and the hard to start characteristics are the symptoms I'm able to detect. That said, relays can fail in more than one manner. For many years Mustangs had problems with relay coils overheating when energized and soldering the bridge in the circuit closed resulting in a constant on condition, as an example.
The best way to describe the noise is that of a relay being tested on a bench. Alligator clips/slip ons on the blades, and you go to energize it but you don't initially get a good connection to the battery/power source so the relay has a spasm so to speak. Just multiply that times 5.
But like I mentioned above, I'm convinced this isn't normal due to the level of heat and the number of times the relays actuate before the car will start - the number of times they actuate changes every time I try and start it but it is never quick to send power to the starter motor. They do this as well when I shut it off, and I would think they would just switch to the off position when powering down and not continue to cycle on off on off. It's really only a concern to me because all 5 of the relays on the fuse box under the dash (the 4 black 4 pins and the grey 5 pin ignition relay) exhibit the nonuniform behavior and I can feel the 2016 FiST cycle uniformly and near silently when you power it up (on when the system powers up, off to prevent power draw to other sources while cranking, then back on once the car is running like you describe). It also engages the starter motor in a fraction of the time it takes mine to. Otherwise, I'd just keep a few spare relays in the glovebox and call it good.
I'm dropping the car off tomorrow, so I'll keep everyone updated when I get feedback from the folks at my local dealership. Here's hoping I'm just being hypercritical.
Good description. Sounds like the switch portion of the relay may be arching... which is actually normal during switch on/off.. except that they're apparently being signaled to do so at rate they're not designed to handle.
So whatever is signaling the relays is what to look at... and why is whatever signaling them is behaving that way is the subsequent thing to figure out.
I'm wondering if this could be a side-effect of the hard start problem, rather than the other way around. Could be something as simple as a weak battery or bad connection at the terminals.
So whatever is signaling the relays is what to look at... and why is whatever signaling them is behaving that way is the subsequent thing to figure out.
I'm wondering if this could be a side-effect of the hard start problem, rather than the other way around. Could be something as simple as a weak battery or bad connection at the terminals.
Sorry to derail your thread by the way Hanzo.
It sounds like if your relays aren't obnoxiously loud and are -consistent- in rate/number of actuations across multiple start attempts then it would probably fall under what Intuit described above. It seems I've got similar symptoms as to what was initially described, just of a whole 'nother magnitude. Will keep you updated.
It sounds like if your relays aren't obnoxiously loud and are -consistent- in rate/number of actuations across multiple start attempts then it would probably fall under what Intuit described above. It seems I've got similar symptoms as to what was initially described, just of a whole 'nother magnitude. Will keep you updated.
I went in to the dealership today and got my issue sorted out.
When I pulled up my salesman spotted me and came out to see what was up. I told him about the problem and asked him to grab the keys to another push button ignition vehicle for comparison. They didn't have another fiesta with the 1.6 that was a push button start (st or not), and every non-fiesta we tested was silent as could be when it went through the startup cycle. So he grabbed the parts manager (not a tech) and got him to give it a listen. They both told me it was normal for the push button start vehicles to make this noise, even though none of the push button cars on their lot made any sort of similar noise. So I said I wanted to leave it with the service dept, as I had already made an appt to drop it off, and get their feedback. The parts manager told me it wouldn't do me any good, and they'd just hand it back to me after they confirmed it would start (since I didn't have any cel on).
I kept my cool, but at this point I was pretty much resolved to sort it out myself. It wasn't going to be worth my time to run around in circles with them over the clear difference in behavior. When I finally told them thanks but that I was going to figure it out myself, this got a neck-snapping reaction out of the guy washing and detailing a car they had presumably just sold. He asked us what was going on, then trotted off to return a few minutes later with another guy in tow armed with mini tongue depressers and a plastic dental pick.
These gentleman dropped the glovebox, pulled the large grey (5 pin) ignition relay, and started slipping the mini tongue depressers into the slots where the relay blades contact the female terminals. After hitting all 5 terminals, he tossed the tongue depressers and slipped the plastic pick into 2 of them and pried up on the retainer prongs (for lack of a more technical term). One manhandled the ignition relay back into the fusebox and cranked up the car.
It still makes more relay actuation noise than any other car I've ever heard, but it finally starts in a concise manner. Crank time is down from ~7 seconds to 3-4 which is a huge improvement, and all the clicking is consistent now. The explanation I was given is that despite the small size of the relay, it actually carries somewhere in the ballpark of 50 amps and so the blades have to get a real good connection on the actuator sides (signal and ground) in order to create a signal strong enough to hold the bridge down while the current flows across it. I was surprised this fixed it, because that relay had felt like it was bolted in when I pulled it to check for discoloration/corrosion on the blades prior to bringing it in. Anyway, I can live with the clicking now that I've at least got the peace of mind that the relays have a solid connection and are working as intended.
TL;DR - Hanzo, noisy relays seem to just be a characteristic of this car, so as long as you don't have any other symptoms (nonuniform actuation / long time-til-crank) like I did then you should be in the clear.
When I pulled up my salesman spotted me and came out to see what was up. I told him about the problem and asked him to grab the keys to another push button ignition vehicle for comparison. They didn't have another fiesta with the 1.6 that was a push button start (st or not), and every non-fiesta we tested was silent as could be when it went through the startup cycle. So he grabbed the parts manager (not a tech) and got him to give it a listen. They both told me it was normal for the push button start vehicles to make this noise, even though none of the push button cars on their lot made any sort of similar noise. So I said I wanted to leave it with the service dept, as I had already made an appt to drop it off, and get their feedback. The parts manager told me it wouldn't do me any good, and they'd just hand it back to me after they confirmed it would start (since I didn't have any cel on).
I kept my cool, but at this point I was pretty much resolved to sort it out myself. It wasn't going to be worth my time to run around in circles with them over the clear difference in behavior. When I finally told them thanks but that I was going to figure it out myself, this got a neck-snapping reaction out of the guy washing and detailing a car they had presumably just sold. He asked us what was going on, then trotted off to return a few minutes later with another guy in tow armed with mini tongue depressers and a plastic dental pick.
These gentleman dropped the glovebox, pulled the large grey (5 pin) ignition relay, and started slipping the mini tongue depressers into the slots where the relay blades contact the female terminals. After hitting all 5 terminals, he tossed the tongue depressers and slipped the plastic pick into 2 of them and pried up on the retainer prongs (for lack of a more technical term). One manhandled the ignition relay back into the fusebox and cranked up the car.
It still makes more relay actuation noise than any other car I've ever heard, but it finally starts in a concise manner. Crank time is down from ~7 seconds to 3-4 which is a huge improvement, and all the clicking is consistent now. The explanation I was given is that despite the small size of the relay, it actually carries somewhere in the ballpark of 50 amps and so the blades have to get a real good connection on the actuator sides (signal and ground) in order to create a signal strong enough to hold the bridge down while the current flows across it. I was surprised this fixed it, because that relay had felt like it was bolted in when I pulled it to check for discoloration/corrosion on the blades prior to bringing it in. Anyway, I can live with the clicking now that I've at least got the peace of mind that the relays have a solid connection and are working as intended.
TL;DR - Hanzo, noisy relays seem to just be a characteristic of this car, so as long as you don't have any other symptoms (nonuniform actuation / long time-til-crank) like I did then you should be in the clear.
Old thread I know but I just had this issue myself in the same area behind the glove box. Sounded like a relay. I recently did a rear wiper delete, I must of bumped the rear wiper to on sometime and it was tripping a relay because it was no longer plugged into the rear wiper motor is my guess since it has totally stopped since I remembered to turn the rear wiper off. Just in case anybody was in a somewhat close situation like I was.
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