MP215 - Impressions, Feedback, and Questions

[jmrtsus]

Full disclosure...I am not an attorney and I have no dog in the hunt here other than trying to prevent hassles I have had in the past with factory warranties and modded cars.


Caliboy15......What Ford is saying is exactly what you say Ford should say! How is it misleading? The M/M law puts the burden of proof on you the consumer, not the manufacturer, with the Mountune there is no debate, Ford is acknowledging the approved Mountune parts will not cause a problem. M/M is very vague...any part that is shown to increase power in an engine over the factory rating AND modifies the operation of the engine historically WILL void the warranty on the engine. Things like air filters and exhaust may increase power but do not affect the operation of the engine. Changing the "tune" does indeed change the internal operation of the engine, much like changing an intake, cam and lifters in an older engine.

It really is simple, Mountune products that are "warranty friendly" have been submitted and tested by Ford and approved for this coverage. Parts like Cobbs are not under Fords control and have not been tested and approved. The Mountune "tune" is a fixed tune that cannot be altered to suit a customers request. Drive train problems will not be covered under warranty from a Cobb "tune" or any others because Ford has no idea what they have done to the working of the engine. The only recourse you have will be to sue Ford and to try (impossibly) to prove the other "tune" could NOT have caused the problem. Not that the Cobb tune is in any way known to be bad, I am simply using the name as an example, I am sure Cobb makes excellent products but does not have a Ford connection with a history of working with Ford Racing. To expect a manufacturer to cover all engine problems no matter what modifications are done to them is unreasonable. That is the advantage of the Ford Performance improvements....your car and the additional Mountune parts are covered until your initial warranty runs out. I am not a gambler....I will do the Mountune thing rather than set myself up for battle city in the service department if something does go wrong.....you have to applaud Ford for this approach.

I think you may be misleading people into believing they will get coverage for other "tuning" products, that is not true. Some parts like exhaust systems, air filters, tires and proper lubricants have already been proven to cause no harm. If someone ends up with a bad engine and a "tune" other than from Mountune/FFPP I am sure Ford will reject any claim for coverage to keep from setting a legal precedence and I am sure you personally are not volunteering to represent them in court. What you are expressing is a "personal" opinion not a legal one unless you are also an expert on the workings on the Ford ST engine and the electronics of it and all the various tunes and how they affect the reliability of the engine. Ford on the other hand is on the engine and the Mountune MP215, they have tested and approved the Mountune "tune" and LOCKED it so it cannot be altered. That is what makes it "warranty friendly".....no warranty problems!

BTW, is you look closely at Cobbs website (FAQ's I think) they suggest removing the tune before going back to the dealer......BUT they also say they do not know if Ford has a way to determine if the car was re flashed. So even they seem concerned about possible warranty claims.

I have done the warranty dance on a modified Saab for street rallies and an RX 2 for autocross. Koni shocks and aftermarket springs killed the squeak and rattle claims on the Saab and slightly larger tires killed suspension repairs on the RX 2. Changed the intake on my 5.0 Mustang Indy pace car.....ended up with a rod knock and Ford said not their problem....engine was modified. So this time it will be Mountune and only two power increasing parts are covered, the MP215 and their inter-coolers. As new items are added I will add those....but no more service battles for me. And thank you for the explanations for all of us, I am just concerned that others will get the impression that they will get warranty service on "tunes" other than the Mountune and I think even Cobb acknowledges that probably will not happen.

 

[FiST of Fury]

Full disclosure...I am not an attorney and I have no dog in the hunt here other than trying to prevent hassles I have had in the past with factory warranties and modded cars.


Caliboy15......What Ford is saying is exactly what you say Ford should say! How is it misleading? The M/M law puts the burden of proof on you the consumer, not the manufacturer, with the Mountune there is no debate, Ford is acknowledging the approved Mountune parts will not cause a problem. M/M is very vague...any part that is shown to increase power in an engine over the factory rating AND modifies the operation of the engine historically WILL void the warranty on the engine. Things like air filters and exhaust may increase power but do not affect the operation of the engine. Changing the "tune" does indeed change the internal operation of the engine, much like changing an intake, cam and lifters in an older engine.

It really is simple, Mountune products that are "warranty friendly" have been submitted and tested by Ford and approved for this coverage. Parts like Cobbs are not under Fords control and have not been tested and approved. The Mountune "tune" is a fixed tune that cannot be altered to suit a customers request. Drive train problems will not be covered under warranty from a Cobb "tune" or any others because Ford has no idea what they have done to the working of the engine. The only recourse you have will be to sue Ford and to try (impossibly) to prove the other "tune" could NOT have caused the problem. Not that the Cobb tune is in any way known to be bad, I am simply using the name as an example, I am sure Cobb makes excellent products but does not have a Ford connection with a history of working with Ford Racing. To expect a manufacturer to cover all engine problems no matter what modifications are done to them is unreasonable. That is the advantage of the Ford Performance improvements....your car and the additional Mountune parts are covered until your initial warranty runs out. I am not a gambler....I will do the Mountune thing rather than set myself up for battle city in the service department if something does go wrong.....you have to applaud Ford for this approach.

I think you may be misleading people into believing they will get coverage for other "tuning" products, that is not true. Some parts like exhaust systems, air filters, tires and proper lubricants have already been proven to cause no harm. If someone ends up with a bad engine and a "tune" other than from Mountune/FFPP I am sure Ford will reject any claim for coverage to keep from setting a legal precedence and I am sure you personally are not volunteering to represent them in court. What you are expressing is a "personal" opinion not a legal one unless you are also an expert on the workings on the Ford ST engine and the electronics of it and all the various tunes and how they affect the reliability of the engine. Ford on the other hand is on the engine and the Mountune MP215, they have tested and approved the Mountune "tune" and LOCKED it so it cannot be altered. That is what makes it "warranty friendly".....no warranty problems!

BTW, is you look closely at Cobbs website (FAQ's I think) they suggest removing the tune before going back to the dealer......BUT they also say they do not know if Ford has a way to determine if the car was re flashed. So even they seem concerned about possible warranty claims.

I have done the warranty dance on a modified Saab for street rallies and an RX 2 for autocross. Koni shocks and aftermarket springs killed the squeak and rattle claims on the Saab and slightly larger tires killed suspension repairs on the RX 2. Changed the intake on my 5.0 Mustang Indy pace car.....ended up with a rod knock and Ford said not their problem....engine was modified. So this time it will be Mountune and only two power increasing parts are covered, the MP215 and their inter-coolers. As new items are added I will add those....but no more service battles for me. And thank you for the explanations for all of us, I am just concerned that others will get the impression that they will get warranty service on "tunes" other than the Mountune and I think even Cobb acknowledges that probably will not happen.

Great info, jmrtsus! I'm new to performance cars, just sold my truck yesterday. I don't know squat about cars. I've had the FiST for a month and love it; it's my daily driver. I'm about to buy the MP215 because of the warranty-friendliness. After reading your post, I'm considering getting the intercooler, too. Do you already have these parts on your car? If so, tell me about the differences you're noticing. I need some info before I commit the $$$...

 

[jmrtsus]

No car yet.....have negotiated the MP 215 and installation in the sales price but still haggling over financing. I have driven the Fiesta ST and the Focus ST and we both (wife) liked the Fiesta better. Stock the performance is wonderful but adding some inexpensive warranted low RPM grunt is a no brainier to me. Dollar wise the Mountune inter cooler will have to wait. The dealer wants $400 to install it and $800 for the I.C. so I will have to wait. Besides I think the improvements with the I.C. would be almost unnoticeable with out all of the hoses and pipe also changed so add another $500 for the hoses and installation. Then would come the exhaust to free up the flow out. Add another $800 to $1000. At that point you may be up to 230 HP. So the first 18 HP will cost me $1450. The next 15 HP will be about $2500. Or $80.55 per HP Vs $166.66 per HP. To much for my budget and other than trips on the Tail of the Dragon (1 hour away) I will never use the additional 15 HP.

So in a nutshell I will do the MP 215 from the dealer then the day I pick it up have the resonator removed to improve the sound and in theory at least reduce some back pressure and a minor increase in flow. Then I will save my pennies until 36K miles and do the I.C. and hoses myself. Will also do the Mountune engine mount myself right away.

I feel sure 250 HP can be reached with all of the above plus a more aggressive tune, new catted down pipe and a tuned 2.5 or 3 inch exhaust. How much will that cost? Another $2500? $125 per HP?

The point is that HP cost money but it is actually inexpensive for the Fiesta ST. I think for my needs 215 to 220 HP is enough for me. Your needs may be different.

 

[FiST of Fury]

No car yet.....have negotiated the MP 215 and installation in the sales price but still haggling over financing. I have driven the Fiesta ST and the Focus ST and we both (wife) liked the Fiesta better. Stock the performance is wonderful but adding some inexpensive warranted low RPM grunt is a no brainier to me. Dollar wise the Mountune inter cooler will have to wait. The dealer wants $400 to install it and $800 for the I.C. so I will have to wait. Besides I think the improvements with the I.C. would be almost unnoticeable with out all of the hoses and pipe also changed so add another $500 for the hoses and installation. Then would come the exhaust to free up the flow out. Add another $800 to $1000. At that point you may be up to 230 HP. So the first 18 HP will cost me $1450. The next 15 HP will be about $2500. Or $80.55 per HP Vs $166.66 per HP. To much for my budget and other than trips on the Tail of the Dragon (1 hour away) I will never use the additional 15 HP.

So in a nutshell I will do the MP 215 from the dealer then the day I pick it up have the resonator removed to improve the sound and in theory at least reduce some back pressure and a minor increase in flow. Then I will save my pennies until 36K miles and do the I.C. and hoses myself. Will also do the Mountune engine mount myself right away.

I feel sure 250 HP can be reached with all of the above plus a more aggressive tune, new catted down pipe and a tuned 2.5 or 3 inch exhaust. How much will that cost? Another $2500? $125 per HP?

The point is that HP cost money but it is actually inexpensive for the Fiesta ST. I think for my needs 215 to 220 HP is enough for me. Your needs may be different.

I have learned more in your last two posts about cars than I have in my previous nearly 34 years. Thanks again for the info! Looks like the FMIC is warranty-friendly, but the boost hose and pipe don't seem to be. I wanna' stay under warranty, so the MP215 will be all for me, if the IC is useless with the hose and pipe.

As far as my hp needs...get me to and from work. My wants though...I'll always take more quickness.

 

[dyn085]

Conclusion: I think you're reading it incorrectly. I think these are "and" statements, not exclusive "or" statements. It's saying that these are the areas of coverage:

Ford will cover the mountune parts if they fail 3/36
Ford will cover other parts if they fail not caused by mountune parts 3/36
AND Ford will cover other parts if they are caused by mountune parts 3/36

Just my two cents

Exactly this ^.

No car yet.....have negotiated the MP 215 and installation in the sales price but still haggling over financing. I have driven the Fiesta ST and the Focus ST and we both (wife) liked the Fiesta better. Stock the performance is wonderful but adding some inexpensive warranted low RPM grunt is a no brainier to me. Dollar wise the Mountune inter cooler will have to wait. The dealer wants $400 to install it and $800 for the I.C. so I will have to wait. Besides I think the improvements with the I.C. would be almost unnoticeable with out all of the hoses and pipe also changed so add another $500 for the hoses and installation. Then would come the exhaust to free up the flow out. Add another $800 to $1000. At that point you may be up to 230 HP. So the first 18 HP will cost me $1450. The next 15 HP will be about $2500. Or $80.55 per HP Vs $166.66 per HP. To much for my budget and other than trips on the Tail of the Dragon (1 hour away) I will never use the additional 15 HP.

So in a nutshell I will do the MP 215 from the dealer then the day I pick it up have the resonator removed to improve the sound and in theory at least reduce some back pressure and a minor increase in flow. Then I will save my pennies until 36K miles and do the I.C. and hoses myself. Will also do the Mountune engine mount myself right away.

I feel sure 250 HP can be reached with all of the above plus a more aggressive tune, new catted down pipe and a tuned 2.5 or 3 inch exhaust. How much will that cost? Another $2500? $125 per HP?

The point is that HP cost money but it is actually inexpensive for the Fiesta ST. I think for my needs 215 to 220 HP is enough for me. Your needs may be different.

In short, you don't need to spend all of that money to get the maximum performance out of the OEM turbo. The only two parts you would really need is the FMIC and a downpipe, to which you would add a custom tune. Intakes and CBE do nothing for the OEM turbo performance-wise, though they add looks/sound. You don't really even need the pipes for the intercooler.

So basically, there are different options depending on needs/wants. If someone wants warranty peace of mind then stock or Mountune are the only options. If warranty is not a concern and someone wants the best dollar/hp ratio then they buy those two parts and get the AP3 from the tuner of their choice with a custom tune. For those that don't mind throwing money into the wind, want all of the bling, or intend on going big-turbo down the line-just buy all the parts and tune accordingly.

Obviously you can go anywhere in-between, but the highest hp cars on the OEM turbo were putting their numbers down on cars that were, besides those two parts, stock down to the paper air filter. The FMIC keeps CAT's down for power/consistency/safety and the downpipe frees up restriction for the turbo to exhale better.

Disclaimer-This only applies to USDM cars due to our MAP system, the non-USDM vehicles might see different results with a different mod path due to their MAF tuning.

 

[jmrtsus]

I agree to a point, an I.C. and Down pipe will still be limited to the flow of the stock I.C. plumbing and exhaust system. An engine is an air pump.....cold air in hot air out. The flow in a complete system of intake, turbo, engine and cat/exhaust is limited in air flow to the most restrictive devices. Changing the intake, I.C. and charges/flow hoses, Cat and exhaust to high flow devices will allow the turbo/engine to see a cleaner flow with colder air temps in and a larger free flowing exit of the hot exhaust. But changing only part of the system will not suffice. The Mountune I.C. only gives about a 35% improvement in cooling/air flow capacity but needs the improved flow of the Mountune hoses and charge pipe plus a free flowing CAT/exhaust to really see any air flow gains, the air cooling capacity is still restricted somewhat by the stock hoses but it will give a faster heat recovery than stock. What changing all of the air in/out devices to a more free flowing system will do is give a complete less restrictive air flow and that will give you a quicker spooling turbo and faster recovery of charge air temps.

The maximum power is and always will be determined by the flow of the stock turbo. In trying to sort out the benefits of having the I.C. installed at purchase along with the MP 215 I had a discussion with Mountune on the I.C. They confirmed my concerns and correctly stated the I.C. alone will not add HP to the ST, it is a heat recovery device. So in the US what we can do is improve the air flow to feed and empty the little turbo and enjoy the low end torque it provides. In short the I.C. will not on its own increase power but in conjunction with a complete change on intake/I.C. plumbing/CAT/exhaust can provide maximum air flow and a small overall increase of maybe 10-15 HP without a new tune. One of the aftermarket exhaust system suppliers show a dyno increase of about 5 HP at the high end of the RPM range over stock. But is the 10 or more HP worth the investment? To me no, not now. If I were auto-crossing or had a use for the power that would be another thing.

Ultimately the FiST is a great performer and with the MP 215 its low grunt improvement is felt and appreciated on the streets and roads. With 215 HP the Fist engine is producing about 2.4 HP per cubic inch with a factory warranty. Ponder this...a 1968 -1970 muscle car engine like a 455 ci Pontiac would have been producing 1092 HP, a Ford 428 ci would make 1027 HP and with today's technology doing it under warranty. Look at the "Hellcat" to see why now is the muscle car era.

As to performance upgrades, everyone needs to keep in mind a statement of "50% better air flow" on an intake for example means compared to the stock intake only.....NOT 50% better air flow through the entire engine. A giant intake hose does nothing to improve overall flow when in the I.C. connections we have small hoses or a restrictive exhaust system. Reduced back pressure in the after market exhaust systems can and do provide dyno proven increases at the cost of increase sound (fine with me!) these small increases add up in a 200 HP engine. So in my Cost/Benefit analysis a 5 HP increase at a cost of $800 is a cost of $160 per HP, on a HP basis a new exhaust for HP gains only make little sense. BUT, I am willing to pay it for the sweet sound of a Borla or FRPP exhaust AND the slight HP gain. So a nice exhaust will be the next "mod" to our FiST but I don't think the extra HP at a very high RPM will ever be felt by us but the sweet sound of the exhaust will bring lots of smiles per gallon.

At this point I believe Mountune now has the complete air flow system ready. CBE exhaust,catted downpipe, I.C. and higher flow plumbing, MP215 and intake. How long to get them all warranty certified, who knows? Sooner of later a new tune will appear to take advantage of the increased air flow. Is a MP 240 or 250 in the future? Overall I can see the complete system and a new tune bringing and additional 25-35 HP but at what cost? $4000? Out of my budget except piece by piece over time........

Being retired I no longer have the budget I used to have to play with my toys, so having them covered by a warranty is important to us as is performance. Once I researched the warranty and performance products by Ford Racing/Mountune after driving the ST pair we decided Ford and the Fiesta ST was the choice for us. Now if I can just get the car here!

 

[dyn085]

I agree to a point, an I.C. and Down pipe will still be limited to the flow of the stock I.C. plumbing and exhaust system. An engine is an air pump.....cold air in hot air out. The flow in a complete system of intake, turbo, engine and cat/exhaust is limited in air flow to the most restrictive devices. Changing the intake, I.C. and charges/flow hoses, Cat and exhaust to high flow devices will allow the turbo/engine to see a cleaner flow with colder air temps in and a larger free flowing exit of the hot exhaust. But changing only part of the system will not suffice. The Mountune I.C. only gives about a 35% improvement in cooling/air flow capacity but needs the improved flow of the Mountune hoses and charge pipe plus a free flowing CAT/exhaust to really see any air flow gains, the air cooling capacity is still restricted somewhat by the stock hoses but it will give a faster heat recovery than stock. What changing all of the air in/out devices to a more free flowing system will do is give a complete less restrictive air flow and that will give you a quicker spooling turbo and faster recovery of charge air temps.

The maximum power is and always will be determined by the flow of the stock turbo. In trying to sort out the benefits of having the I.C. installed at purchase along with the MP 215 I had a discussion with Mountune on the I.C. They confirmed my concerns and correctly stated the I.C. alone will not add HP to the ST, it is a heat recovery device. So in the US what we can do is improve the air flow to feed and empty the little turbo and enjoy the low end torque it provides. In short the I.C. will not on its own increase power but in conjunction with a complete change on intake/I.C. plumbing/CAT/exhaust can provide maximum air flow and a small overall increase of maybe 10-15 HP without a new tune. One of the aftermarket exhaust system suppliers show a dyno increase of about 5 HP at the high end of the RPM range over stock. But is the 10 or more HP worth the investment? To me no, not now. If I were auto-crossing or had a use for the power that would be another thing.

Ultimately the FiST is a great performer and with the MP 215 its low grunt improvement is felt and appreciated on the streets and roads. With 215 HP the Fist engine is producing about 2.4 HP per cubic inch with a factory warranty. Ponder this...a 1968 -1970 muscle car engine like a 455 ci Pontiac would have been producing 1092 HP, a Ford 428 ci would make 1027 HP and with today's technology doing it under warranty. Look at the "Hellcat" to see why now is the muscle car era.

As to performance upgrades, everyone needs to keep in mind a statement of "50% better air flow" on an intake for example means compared to the stock intake only.....NOT 50% better air flow through the entire engine. A giant intake hose does nothing to improve overall flow when in the I.C. connections we have small hoses or a restrictive exhaust system. Reduced back pressure in the after market exhaust systems can and do provide dyno proven increases at the cost of increase sound (fine with me!) these small increases add up in a 200 HP engine. So in my Cost/Benefit analysis a 5 HP increase at a cost of $800 is a cost of $160 per HP, on a HP basis a new exhaust for HP gains only make little sense. BUT, I am willing to pay it for the sweet sound of a Borla or FRPP exhaust AND the slight HP gain. So a nice exhaust will be the next "mod" to our FiST but I don't think the extra HP at a very high RPM will ever be felt by us but the sweet sound of the exhaust will bring lots of smiles per gallon.

At this point I believe Mountune now has the complete air flow system ready. CBE exhaust,catted downpipe, I.C. and higher flow plumbing, MP215 and intake. How long to get them all warranty certified, who knows? Sooner of later a new tune will appear to take advantage of the increased air flow. Is a MP 240 or 250 in the future? Overall I can see the complete system and a new tune bringing and additional 25-35 HP but at what cost? $4000? Out of my budget except piece by piece over time........

Being retired I no longer have the budget I used to have to play with my toys, so having them covered by a warranty is important to us as is performance. Once I researched the warranty and performance products by Ford Racing/Mountune after driving the ST pair we decided Ford and the Fiesta ST was the choice for us. Now if I can just get the car here!

I understand your underlying thought process and I don't necessarily disagree with that, but what I'm trying to say is that, on the OEM turbo, you need nothing more than the intercooler, downpipe, and tune. The turbo can only flow so much, and if we're maxing it out with those pieces then you can be assured that any extra pennies spent are not going to give you the ROI you're looking for. You can speculate all you want and listen to what the aftermarket wants to sell you, but as a fellow consumer that won't make a single penny off of anything you buy and member that has done plenty of datalogging to prove/disprove theories I can assure you that you only need the pieces I've described.

I have the Cobb FMIC and hard charge pipes. My CAT's went from being around +30 degrees on a single pull to roughly +8-10. Want to know what else I got with all of that additional airspace within the pipes/FMIC? Turbo lag. It's a fact that with more area the turbo has more to fill before it's at boost targets. That's not a huge deal because we still have practically no lag compared to other vehicles, but the point is still the same.

Want to hear something even better? Another member that went with a slightly smaller FMIC and used the OEM charge pipes sees an additional 1-2 degrees less CAT.

Not only is he seeing cooler CAT's, but he is also pushing significantly more power than I am. While the main reason he is is due to the fuel he's using, it doesn't change the fact that he (and others) are pushing significantly more power on the stock intake (down to the paper filter), charge pipes, and CBE. And to put it into perspective, I spent roughly 3x the amount that they did because I went with a stage 3 setup while they only bought the necessary parts to max out the turbo.

I understand what you're trying to teach us, but we've already put all of this theory to test. Some of us wanted legitimate data so we datalogged it and compared. We wanted to approach modifications smartly to see if the aftermarket was giving us correct info. Some of us went stage 3 anyways because we plan on upgrading the turbo and will then need the additional parts, but those that just wanted maximum power with a high ROI didn't.

Whenever you decide to piece together the FMIC, datalog the FMIC by itself and then add the pipes and datalog again. You'll be disappointed if you're expecting what you're trying to teach. I don't think the Mountune unit datalogs, but if it does you should. And yes, there will eventually be a MR tune to take advantage of their non warranty-friendly parts.

 

[FiST of Fury]

Exactly this ^.



In short, you don't need to spend all of that money to get the maximum performance out of the OEM turbo. The only two parts you would really need is the FMIC and a downpipe, to which you would add a custom tune. Intakes and CBE do nothing for the OEM turbo performance-wise, though they add looks/sound. You don't really even need the pipes for the intercooler.

So basically, there are different options depending on needs/wants. If someone wants warranty peace of mind then stock or Mountune are the only options. If warranty is not a concern and someone wants the best dollar/hp ratio then they buy those two parts and get the AP3 from the tuner of their choice with a custom tune. For those that don't mind throwing money into the wind, want all of the bling, or intend on going big-turbo down the line-just buy all the parts and tune accordingly.

Obviously you can go anywhere in-between, but the highest hp cars on the OEM turbo were putting their numbers down on cars that were, besides those two parts, stock down to the paper air filter. The FMIC keeps CAT's down for power/consistency/safety and the downpipe frees up restriction for the turbo to exhale better.

Disclaimer-This only applies to USDM cars due to our MAP system, the non-USDM vehicles might see different results with a different mod path due to their MAF tuning.

dyn085...

So, in your opinion, in an effort to stay completely warranty-friendly, should I get the MP215 and FMIC without the downpipe? Or should I just stick with the MP215, on it's own. In other words, is the FMIC still effective in increases low rpm torque for a daily-driver, and worth the $800 without the downpipe? Reason-being, the downpipe doesn't appear to be warranty-friendly...

 

[jmrtsus]

I agree with the all you need part and I think your info confirms the fact that the stock turbo is NOT maxed out with the current all stock components. I have not done any real research on this but I doubt FoMoCo would install a turbo running at its limits. Nor do I think Mountune or others have developed these air flow parts without some provable gains in power with better air flow. The ROI on just an I.C. upgrade I don't think is there for me though. I agree on the fuel issue also, we have 93 octane non ethanol a mile away which is all I use in my cars now.

The problem is sorting the data out. As you say data logging will tell us lots of things that suppliers may not. There are lots of claims and dyno results out there. Unfortunately there are very few before and afters with only one part replaced. And when they do it supports the claims but is almost useless sometimes. Without using a name I looked at the dyno results on a big name exhaust system. The dyno confirmed about a 5 HP increase with the only change being the exhaust system. My problem was the increase was at very high RPMs and that if we are accelerating at maximum we would see the additional 5 HP for only a split second. So would you ever feel or clock this increase? I don't think so. What I want on the street is torque in the 1500 to 4000 RPM range which is exactly what the MP 215 gives us. Another exhaust manufacturer promise power gains but for 6 month have said dyno results are to be posted "soon". If they have tested already why will they not post the dyno? Hmmmmm....And still another only has dyno tests that include their down pipe. FRPP promises increased power with theirs but no tests, so is that based on knowing it has reduced back pressure over the stock system so it will make more power? But how much and where on the power band? Increased HP at 6000 RPM does me no good. I suspect the stock 2.17 inch exhaust was specified and tuned for low RPM torque.

As to I.C.'s smaller can be better if it transfers heat better than a larger one. The heat transfer is determined by at least two things. Air flow rate and thermal efficiency/construction. In general the slower air moves through the I.C. the more heat it can transfers so a big I.C. should give a lower charge temp than a smaller one but as you said a large volume will also enhance turbo lag. Small high efficient cores will give the best thermal efficiency without an increase in back pressure or excessive volume. Always trade offs to be made in engine mods.

The small stock turbo is there not for maximum HP but max torque. Too much air flow will give us high RPM gains in HP but degrade throttle response with turbo lag and affect low end torque. I have owned 3 turbos over the years and watched as they developed from the crude carburetor Buick V6 (90 days and it was gone!) days to my Capri I4 turbo which I think defined turbo lag and was quickly traded for a Mustang V8. Then the much improved Mazda GT with computer and fuel injection. All of which got the requisite K&N filters, free flow exhaust systems and Koni shocks.

The Capri would take the Mustang in a 1/4 mile but street driving quickly in a hilly area meant redlining it all the time as it had zero torque at low RPMs and only made power above 4000 RPM but the V8 Mustang was much more livable. The Mazda was also a high RPM powerhouse but not much low grunt. The point of this info is I don't want high RPM power, I don't drag or street race, I want torque for city street and road driving. I doubt mt FiST will ever see a clutch drop launch, mine will find itself devouring curves so torque is my goal. With that said I will never increase my turbo size nor look for more than 225 HP at the expense of low end response. So I will not be installing a 3" exhaust or high flow catted down pipe. I will do the I.C. and plumbing out of warranty. It make no $$ sense to me to install the I.C. and not do the plumbing with it but at $110 Hr labor at the dealer I can't afford to pay $2000 for the 6 to 8 hours labor plus parts they are estimating for the I.C. and hoses. Doing it myself with discounts on the parts is half the price. So I can add the down pipe and exhaust system for my $2000 and I am sure that will be all that is ever done with the cars power train until I get even more senile and my kids take my toy away and they blow it up!

The nice thing about these forums is the opportunity to express our thoughts and experiences and share them to learn from others....now if I could learn patience in waiting for my car to get in my hands I would be a happy man! But as our Fiesta will get low miles it will be a 3 years wait to do any more mods and by then who knows what will be available! Thanks for your input!

 

[dyn085]

dyn085...

So, in your opinion, in an effort to stay completely warranty-friendly, should I get the MP215 and FMIC without the downpipe? Or should I just stick with the MP215, on it's own. In other words, is the FMIC still effective in increases low rpm torque for a daily-driver, and worth the $800 without the downpipe? Reason-being, the downpipe doesn't appear to be warranty-friendly...

In short, if you want to retain warranty then use the Mountune parts that are warranty friendly. The downpipe is absolutely not warranty friendly nor will it ever be. If the FMIC is then do that with the MP215 as that is currently the only way to maintain warranty with a tune and absolutely nothing added to the car is worth any appreciable ROI without a tune.

 

[dyn085]

I agree with the all you need part and I think your info confirms the fact that the stock turbo is NOT maxed out with the current all stock components. I have not done any real research on this but I doubt FoMoCo would install a turbo running at its limits. Nor do I think Mountune or others have developed these air flow parts without some provable gains in power with better air flow. The ROI on just an I.C. upgrade I don't think is there for me though. I agree on the fuel issue also, we have 93 octane non ethanol a mile away which is all I use in my cars now.

I never said that so I don't know why you are. I specifically said that you need two upgraded parts and a tune to max the turbo.

The problem is sorting the data out. As you say data logging will tell us lots of things that suppliers may not. There are lots of claims and dyno results out there. Unfortunately there are very few before and afters with only one part replaced. And when they do it supports the claims but is almost useless sometimes. Without using a name I looked at the dyno results on a big name exhaust system. The dyno confirmed about a 5 HP increase with the only change being the exhaust system. My problem was the increase was at very high RPMs and that if we are accelerating at maximum we would see the additional 5 HP for only a split second. So would you ever feel or clock this increase? I don't think so. What I want on the street is torque in the 1500 to 4000 RPM range which is exactly what the MP 215 gives us. Another exhaust manufacturer promise power gains but for 6 month have said dyno results are to be posted "soon". If they have tested already why will they not post the dyno? Hmmmmm....And still another only has dyno tests that include their down pipe. FRPP promises increased power with theirs but no tests, so is that based on knowing it has reduced back pressure over the stock system so it will make more power? But how much and where on the power band? Increased HP at 6000 RPM does me no good. I suspect the stock 2.17 inch exhaust was specified and tuned for low RPM torque.

The problem isn't sorting out the data, it's learning from the members that have been part of the community and have already seen the data sorted-out.

As an aside, the turbo is always the most restrictive component of a properly-sized exhaust. That's why members have not logged gains by changing the CBE whereas they have by replacing the downpipe and keeping the CBE stock.

As to I.C.'s smaller can be better if it transfers heat better than a larger one. The heat transfer is determined by at least two things. Air flow rate and thermal efficiency/construction. In general the slower air moves through the I.C. the more heat it can transfers so a big I.C. should give a lower charge temp than a smaller one but as you said a large volume will also enhance turbo lag. Small high efficient cores will give the best thermal efficiency without an increase in back pressure or excessive volume. Always trade offs to be made in engine mods.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but no Mountune member has shown a datalog of temperature increases lower than the Airtec or Cobb units. Given the third-party data that is currently available, the Airtec with OEM pipes cools the best.

The small stock turbo is there not for maximum HP but max torque. Too much air flow will give us high RPM gains in HP but degrade throttle response with turbo lag and affect low end torque. I have owned 3 turbos over the years and watched as they developed from the crude carburetor Buick V6 (90 days and it was gone!) days to my Capri I4 turbo which I think defined turbo lag and was quickly traded for a Mustang V8. Then the much improved Mazda GT with computer and fuel injection. All of which got the requisite K&N filters, free flow exhaust systems and Koni shocks.

This turbo is so small that, while what you're saying makes sense in theory, you're not going to notice it in practice. Yes my car has more lag than stock, but it's going to be measured in tenths/hundredths of a second at most. You'll never see it in a quarter-mile pass.

The Capri would take the Mustang in a 1/4 mile but street driving quickly in a hilly area meant redlining it all the time as it had zero torque at low RPMs and only made power above 4000 RPM but the V8 Mustang was much more livable. The Mazda was also a high RPM powerhouse but not much low grunt. The point of this info is I don't want high RPM power, I don't drag or street race, I want torque for city street and road driving. I doubt mt FiST will ever see a clutch drop launch, mine will find itself devouring curves so torque is my goal. With that said I will never increase my turbo size nor look for more than 225 HP at the expense of low end response. So I will not be installing a 3" exhaust or high flow catted down pipe. I will do the I.C. and plumbing out of warranty. It make no $$ sense to me to install the I.C. and not do the plumbing with it but at $110 Hr labor at the dealer I can't afford to pay $2000 for the 6 to 8 hours labor plus parts they are estimating for the I.C. and hoses. Doing it myself with discounts on the parts is half the price. So I can add the down pipe and exhaust system for my $2000 and I am sure that will be all that is ever done with the cars power train until I get even more senile and my kids take my toy away and they blow it up!

The nice thing about these forums is the opportunity to express our thoughts and experiences and share them to learn from others....now if I could learn patience in waiting for my car to get in my hands I would be a happy man! But as our Fiesta will get low miles it will be a 3 years wait to do any more mods and by then who knows what will be available! Thanks for your input!

That's good, because on the OEM turbo you're never going to lose low-end response and never going to have high-end horsepower.

I'm not the kind of guy to care what other people do with their cars because it's not my money, I'm simply trying to give you information from a neutral perspective because I have nothing to gain from your decisions. Want to stay warranty-friendly? Great. Want to buy the FMIC and also buy the charge pipes? Great. Want to spend every penny for the most expensive parts regardless of whether there's a better performer or whether it will do nothing for your performance? Great.

I'm just trying to relay what the community has found out through trial and error to help save you time from researching it yourself and having to sift through bad info to find out legitimate info or save you time and money from having to test your theories and learn it all yourself. Times have changed a lot in the last 10 years, let alone since the Capri.

 

[jmrtsus]

Did not mean to imply that you said that about the turbo.....there are many posts that do make claims to no improvements without changing the turbo and yours shows that improvements can be had with the stock turbo as it is not the limiting factor with the stock components.

As to the I.C. I was simply explaining why it makes no sense to me at this point. And like you if others have the money ($1100 for just the I.C. installed here) then by all means they should go for it. I would if I had the money to do it right away. And the only reason I would do the Mountune I.C. is for warranty considerations. I too believe there are better ones out there.

Why would you think I want to throw money at parts? If you look at my first post you will see the only changes from stock on my FiST will be the MP 215, removal of the resonator and change the engine mount. The ROI on anything else is not there for me during the warranty period. As to a down pipe I need a catted pipe as we are inspected annually here. I have seen zero test info on catted down pipes without having other equipment installed that I don't and won't have. And much too many non catted pipes to please me period. Again the ROI is not there for me as I will bet the Mountune catted pipe will be at least $800 and the dealer will want another $200 to install. So please do not lump me in the "money" group.....those days ended when I retired.

Everyone on this forum that has a desire to modify their FiST will have differing opinions and incomes/priorities in life. Some will have the means to simply buy what they want and others will stay stone stock but I suspect the majority will get as much info including others experience as possible to make a decision on their own cars mods. I will not be monitoring anything, the programmer will be in the glove box and I will be a happy warranted lil' camper driving and having a ball with my toy. Any future upgrades will start with a couple of under seat sub-woofers, painting my calipers yellow and SS brake lines and ceramic pads.

Again thanks for your info, I do appreciate your input....and thank God turbos have improved but honestly at least the Capri ran. The Regal spent 6 out of the 8 weeks I owned it parked at the dealer waiting to be repaired. GM did offer me a discount on renting a car!!!!!! As soon as it ran I traded for the Mustang Pace car.....have not had a GM since.

BTW have you done a shift kit?

 

[dyn085]

I wasn't trying to say you wanted to spend tons of money, those were just examples of how there are different routes to approach modding and that it's not my place to decide how someone else approaches it with their own vehicle.

No, I don't have a short-shift kit. I've been meaning to get one because my shifter is far too light with my heavy shift knob. My priorities have been on the FoST lately and I probably haven't even run a full tank of fuel through the FiST in the last month.

 

[drugazi]

MP215 is $899 on mountune usa right now... I think that's your answer. Get it.

 

[drugazi]

BTW, upgrading the intercooler really changed the way the turbo performed for me. Pulls its hardest much more consistently.

 

[Westy88]

I'm also thinking about getting the mp215, I have my ST on finance, would I have to contact the dealership where I got my ST from to let them know I'm upgrading it or can I just get in contact with mountune to get the ball rolling as I'm not sure how I'd go about starting the process.

 

[CSM]

I'm also thinking about getting the mp215, I have my ST on finance, would I have to contact the dealership where I got my ST from to let them know I'm upgrading it or can I just get in contact with mountune to get the ball rolling as I'm not sure how I'd go about starting the process.

You can have it installed at any ford dealer. The only thing is that some dealers know what it is, and some do not. If you just call around and ask if dealers will install "ford racing parts", and they say yes, then they will know the drill.

EDIT: I just realized you live in UK. Might be different over there!

 

[jwatkeys]

I'm also thinking about getting the mp215, I have my ST on finance, would I have to contact the dealership where I got my ST from to let them know I'm upgrading it or can I just get in contact with mountune to get the ball rolling as I'm not sure how I'd go about starting the process.

Hi mate, you dont need to let your dealership know, just insurance.

 

[the duke]

MP215 Impressions

Still on the fence about the MP215 kit. I had a Cobb AP V1 on my old 04 STi and stage one didn't really feel any different.

Does the MP215 kit change how hard the boost hits/spools? From what I've read, the torque logic is still programmed in, so 1st isn't really any noticeable, correct?

 

[lemons6245]

I have had the MP215 for a while now. I talked with Randy in person about the different options out there. After our talk I decided to go with the 215 over his tune or the cobb ots tunes. The tune is great, I really do love it and the plus that it also warranty friendly is great. I also like that it still limits boost is first and second. Honestly why would you want 100% in first it would be useless, just my opinion. These is one thing, I don't know if I have just gotten used to the tune. I can't remember what the car was like without it but the car seems lazy and has lag until about 2800. Could just be my car, all boost hoses are tight, but once it's above that it's awesome.